Pause before snap - each hand?

[Robert Goodman]

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

[MJT]

By the book legal or not, this is not one that I would have a flag on the ground for. I see no advantage gained in any way and I would not be that picky for something so minor.

By the book, without looking in the book, I'd say technically speaking it would be a foul at any level.

[SWFLguy]

Centers/Snappers do a lot of things that technically could be a foul--move their hands, push the ball forward a bit before snapping it, etc..
99.999% of the time it is NOTHING. Keep the flag in your pocket/belt and let the game go on !

[Robert Goodman]

Thanks for the responses. I was asking from a coach's POV, not an official's. Just wanted to have 1-hand and 2-hand snaps possible without a tell.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

CANADIAN RULING:

OL must be set for a second prior to the snap. I would extend that that include the rotation of the ball, since the hand is moving. We don't allow other OL to move their hands without resetting for a second.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

CANADIAN RULING:

If the left hand on the ball prior to the snap? If so, then yes. If not, he moved prior to the snap and there is no listed exception for the snapper to move early.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

I would not teach my center to use this method. It is illegal and I would not want to set up a situation where I would be risking a flag on every play. Most officials will give the center some leeway however, if they think the center is doing this move to get a jump on the defense, flags will start to fly.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

Why risk this, coach? You won't get a flag everytime, but you won't be happy when one comes, and you could have avoided it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Why risk this, coach? You won't get a flag everytime, but you won't be happy when one comes, and you could have avoided it.

I have in mind a formation (not for just occasional use, but the basis for the offense) where the QB is sidesaddle and getting the ball snapped onto his dominant hand, scooping it in with the other, but the ball can also be snapped thru to the deep backs. To snap to the QB, I'd want the snapper to use one hand, rotating the ball during the snap so as to slap the broad side of the ball against the palm of the QB's dominant hand. To snap deep, I'd like the snapper (these will probably be children) to have the option of a 2-hand snap. But I don't want to tip the defense as to which kind of snap is coming -- i.e. to the QB or deep.

I'm also interested in the possibility of what's sometimes called the "sugar snap" in the single wing, where the snap to the FB or TB may be with the right hand, and the angled snap to the blocking back/quarterback is with the left. Again, the idea is not to tip the play.

I find that kids often stand too close to the ball and tend to snap too high and short, but they're off balance if their feet are too far back unless they put one hand on the ground. That leaves the other hand free to snap the ball. But there are times they might want to get that second hand on the ball too.

I think the sidesaddle stance will make for an easier C-QB exchange, because the QB won't have to absorb shock with elbows & shoulders, and even if they do fumble the ball will land where the offense will be more likely to recover it. Plus this way the QB can look directly at the fly man coming at him in pre-snap motion for the fly (jet) sweep, for which the timing, footwork, and hand work for the handoff will be much easier than if the QB has to spin around. Plus, standing sideways the QB has a quicker getaway fading back to pass; it's like the way Bernie Kosar cocked his foot, more more so.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

I would not teach my center to use this method. It is illegal

That's what I wanted to know, but on what basis is it illegal? Does the requirement of a clear pause apply to each hand separately? Or is it as Juggling Referee implied, illegal motion? In USAn rules, is it a false start for moving before the snap begins after placing a hand on or near the ground?

Or does the motion of the ball begin so quickly after the hand moves (the hand being close to the ball to begin with) that either nobody would see it as occurring before the snap, or if they did see it, would consider it to have complied with the spirit of the rules regarding snapping the ball? The same as you wouldn't try to see if the snapper's shoulder, elbow, or head is moving an instant before the ball?

Robert

[daggo66]

The best way to explain something like this to a coach and have them understand the answer is to ask the follwing question, "Why do you want to do this?" Therefore, why do you want your center to snap that way?

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's what I wanted to know, but on what basis is it illegal? Does the requirement of a clear pause apply to each hand separately? Or is it as Juggling Referee implied, illegal motion? In USAn rules, is it a false start for moving before the snap begins after placing a hand on or near the ground?

Or does the motion of the ball begin so quickly after the hand moves (the hand being close to the ball to begin with) that either nobody would see it as occurring before the snap, or if they did see it, would consider it to have complied with the spirit of the rules regarding snapping the ball? The same as you wouldn't try to see if the snapper's shoulder, elbow, or head is moving an instant before the ball?

Robert

In the National Federation (High School) rules, 7-1-3-c says that it is a snap infraction (ball remains dead, 5 yard penalty on the offense) if "Following the ready for play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not...fail to clearly pause before the snap."

It's hard to rule on this without seeing it, but it seems that the play you envision is illegal. Some officials might let it go - maybe most would, but you run the risk of if being flagged. If it is flagged, you really have no arguement so you're taking a risk if this is what you teach.

I'm not a coach so maybe it's worth a shot, but you may have to throw it out in the middle of a game if it gets called. Will your center be able to adjust?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

In the National Federation (High School) rules, 7-1-3-c says that it is a snap infraction (ball remains dead, 5 yard penalty on the offense) if "Following the ready for play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not...fail to clearly pause before the snap."

So you're reading that as, "Following the ready for play and after [each instance of] touching the ball...", or, "Following the ready for play and after [the last] touching [of] the ball...." I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it could also be read as, "Following the ready for play and after [the first] touching [of] the ball...." However, that last reading would make it legal for A1 to touch the ball, then after being called off the line for signals, to snatch-snap the ball on resuming the formation -- which I doubt is intended by Fed!

I'm not a coach so maybe it's worth a shot, but you may have to throw it out in the middle of a game if it gets called. Will your center be able to adjust?

I doubt there'd be time to teach a backup technique "in case they rule this illegal", so the result would be tipping the snap by using one technique for the thrown snap and another for the handed snap. It would, however, be possible to teach either a 2-hand or 1-hand grip for both snaps; it's just that at least for some kids, the method described would be easier to learn.

But then, at the level I'm likely to coach, having officials know the rules is never a given, so you never know what unusual techniques they might flag (or warn against pre-game) even if there's no actual justif'n in the rules! (I still haven't asked whether in Big Apple Youth Football team K can advance their own kickoff recovery, that being very unusual in American codes, but different officials allowed it in 2 different games last year.)

Robert

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

...I still haven't asked whether in Big Apple Youth Football team K can advance their own kickoff recovery, that being very unusual in American codes, but different officials allowed it in 2 different games last year.

Robert

REPLY: Don't make the assumption that just because officials allowed it in two games last year that the league intends it to be allowed. We've seen videos where HS officials have allowed it -- not by intention but simply because they either didn't know the rule, or were caught up in the chaos of the situation and didn't remember the rule. There's no excuse for either, but just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's intended to be legal.

[kfo9494]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

Centers/Snappers do a lot of things that technically could be a foul--move their hands, push the ball forward a bit before snapping it, etc..
99.999% of the time it is NOTHING. Keep the flag in your pocket/belt and let the game go on !

I agree with the above statement. Most of the time the center does not even know that he is doing anything incorrect. We had this in a crew that I was in and during a dead ball period had a talk with the center and he never did it again. He was not even aware that he was moving the other hand.
.

[a4caster]

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach. If it does, then bam. Now if it doesn't for the first few evolutions and I can "notice" it, I might make a suggestion to not make it very abrupt and jerky; don't make it look like a snap. But, if this is coached, then it gets messy because the coach will come and say, "I've been doing this all year." True, but I'm going to give both sides an even game TONIGHT!