Pause before snap - each hand?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by a4caster

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach.

If that's your only criterion, then no problem because there wouldn't be time for team B to encroach. The hand would be so close to the ball to begin with that because it'd be done in one motion, there'be only a tiny fraction of a second between when the hand began to move and when the ball did. That's the whole point of my question -- no pause for that hand.

It's not as if the point of my idea is to set up a subtle kind of false start with the other hand. But that doesn't seem to be the point of the requirement to pause before snapping the ball after touching and optionally adjusting it. Rather, the point of the rule seems not to have to do with the defense's reacting spuriously or too soon, but reacting too late. The point seems to be to put the defense on notice as to when the ball is liable to be snapped. The snapper isn't allowed to start fiddling with the ball and then sneak in a snap, such that team B can't tell which motion of the ball actually puts it in play. Neither is the snapper allowed to position himself near the ball and just snatch it to snap it. But what I have is a case that's arguably either way, where one hand is used to touch and optionally adjust the ball, and then after a clear pause the hand that wasn't touching it is used to snap it. Team B is put on notice that the ball is liable to be snapped because a team A player has a hand on it and the movement of the ball has stopped.

Robert

[Kelvin green]

Congrats on being creative...

However there are probably a ton of reasons you dont see the formation and the subsequent snaps you describe.

I have refereed a ton of youth games. A lot of times coaches make things too complicated...If your are talking kids especially younger ones (12 and under) I recommend keeping things simple, the more complicated you make the plays the less likely they will be executed well..

[daggo66]

Robert, why do you want your center to snap in that manner? It's sometimes difficult to give an answer as to whether or not something could be ruled a false start without seeing, however answering that question will put you one the right path. For example, are you trying to throw off the defense? Are you trying to draw them offsides? Or is this simply a faster more secure method of snapping and, if that is the case, you should be doing it on every down.

[Jim S]

As others have said it IS illegal. As a 35 year umpire I'm going to assume that some coach was trying to find another way to gain any advantage he can (legal or illegal).; So my reaction is to not throw the flag but to go to the snapper and tell him that the technique will not be further allowed, so don't do it again.
And BTW, I would not consider the action to be an illegal motion or snap infraction. By the description it is a false start.

[Jim S]

Originally Posted by a4caster

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach.

I also want to comment on this judgement. Just because a D lineman doesn't encroach doesn't mean he can't be affected by an illegal action of the offense. When you are waiting for a snap and you see that the offense has not yet gotten set LEGALLY you have a tendency to keep a bit relaxed.
By allowing the offense to consistantly violate a rule you are making the defensive player play to your set of rules vs the rulebook.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

A lot of times coaches make things too complicated...If your are talking kids especially younger ones (12 and under) I recommend keeping things simple, the more complicated you make the plays the less likely they will be executed well..

But that's the point -- I think my way will actually make it simpler for young players to learn football. I have an article on the general scheme (not emphasizing beginnners). I think that an inexperienced quarterback would be able to learn this way of taking the snap and backing out easier, and it should make the fly (jet) series much easier, provided you're willing to do it in just one direction. It also allows the snapper to snap head up and still hit either of a pair of backs with a running start, just by lobbing it down the middle for them to run on to.

I was actually looking to put together an offense with a lot of deception but very little ballhandling. Single wing type deception without the spins and handoffs that require such practice on footwork & timing.

So what I have in mind may look complicated to an experienced follower of football just because it's different from what you're used to, but for someone who doesn't know much football I think it'd be simpler than the common forms.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Robert, why do you want your center to snap in that manner? It's sometimes difficult to give an answer as to whether or not something could be ruled a false start without seeing, however answering that question will put you one the right path. For example, are you trying to throw off the defense? Are you trying to draw them offsides? Or is this simply a faster more secure method of snapping and, if that is the case, you should be doing it on every down.

The separate action of the two hands doesn't necessarily go with my Horse Fly system, but was more of a general question regarding the ability to snap to various positions in the backfield comfortably without tipping it in advance. Actually it would be better for my system for the snapper to learn one grip and use it for all snaps, so even as the snap wa made s/he wouldn't be tipping the play. But that may not be feasible with kids given the skill and amount of practice time. More to the point, I was asking for formations like the single wing where the snap might go in several directions, but where the snapper might want to use a 1-handed snap for the fullback or tailback, but be unable to feed the blocking back with just that one hand. It might be a sharply angled snap to the right, for which the snapper would have to use the left hand, with or without the right hand. And I've seen that young snappers will have a freer swing of their dominant hand to snap deep if they rest their non-dominant hand on the ground. But that hand can be very close to the ball.

So the snap can't be the same on every down, because it depends where the snap is going, but it's not to draw the defense offside. It'd be much too fast to draw them offside anyway, because once that left hand moved, it'd be just a tiny fraction of a second before it contacted the ball and started to move it. There's no pump faking or hand faking; the deception is not about when the snap occurs, but where the ball goes. Technically, the snapper's left hand is "beating the snap" by a tiny bit. It would be of the same degree of infraction as the snapper's starting to dorsiflex his head an instant before starting the ball's movement.

Robert

[daggo66]

If you are planning on running the single wing with 12U the snap is going to be the least of your problems. In a true single wing there shouldn't be all that much space between your spin back and your halfbacks. There is no quarterback. There is n reason to teach other than a conventional snap since you are only talking about 3 to 5 yards.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

If you are planning on running the single wing with 12U the snap is going to be the least of your problems. In a true single wing there shouldn't be all that much space between your spin back and your halfbacks. There is no quarterback. There is n reason to teach other than a conventional snap since you are only talking about 3 to 5 yards.

Then I guess you haven't seen how some are also snapping to the blocking back way over there. Coaches who do it say the other team never picks up on which hand the snapper is using, but I wouldn't count on that!

If I use my "horse fly" idea, all this probably goes away, because the center really ought to be able to either do all snaps 1-handed or to rest both hands on the ball, one high and one low, and snap 1-handed to the QB while pushing off the ball with the other.

Robert