Mike Carey

[HossHumard]

I agree, I think the crew did a real nice job as I barely noticed them as well. For once, I thought the Super Bowl was actually, well, a super (entertaining) game!

Once question for my 'murrican brothers about the "Too Many Men" (Illegal Sub.) though.

In Canadian Amateur in a similar situation where the player is high tailing it to his bench and he gets off close to (before) the snap, as long as he did not participate in the play, there's no call. At CFL I believe the situation gets covered by the penalty for having 13 guys (1 too many) in the huddle. Do you guys really nail teams if they're within a half second of a guy touching his sidelines? Is it the same with US Amateur as it is with the NFL? How on earth do you make that call if so?

Thx

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

...Once question for my 'murrican brothers about the "Too Many Men" (Illegal Sub.) though.

In Canadian Amateur in a similar situation where the player is high tailing it to his bench and he gets off close to (before) the snap, as long as he did not participate in the play, there's no call. At CFL I believe the situation gets covered by the penalty for having 13 guys (1 too many) in the huddle. Do you guys really nail teams if they're within a half second of a guy touching his sidelines? Is it the same with US Amateur as it is with the NFL? How on earth do you make that call if so?

Thx

REPLY: In Federation and NCAA ball the rules are just as strict as they are in the NFL--if the player running to the sideline doesn't get off before the snap, technically it's a foul for illegal substitution. However, in practical application, most officials handle it the same way you suggest: If the guy is close enough to the sideline to not make a difference, most officials will let it go ("no harm, no foul"). But in the NFL, since the number of players on the field at the snap is a reviewable situation, they have to call it strictly, the same way they would for a runner being inbounds or out-of-bounds on a tightrope down the sideline. They really have no choice in the NFL. It's got to be called by the book.

[BigGref]

I agree with the common interpretation/enforcement here. Unless the player is still in the middle of the field and within a step or two I usually let it go. I think that this situation is just that case, the player was only a step and half away. They should not be able to review situations like this, leave to official's discretion. And I'm a colts fan and they do it all the time.

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Once question for my 'murrican brothers about the "Too Many Men" (Illegal Sub.) though.
... Do you guys really nail teams if they're within a half second of a guy touching his sidelines? Is it the same with US Amateur as it is with the NFL? How on earth do you make that call if so?

Thx

[Rich]

Maybe I'm the contrarian here, but I tell my wings to make sure the guy gets off or they should flag it.

[OverAndBack]

At the NFL level, I'm thinking, yeah, they should.

But at the high school level, if I'm a wing and the guy's even with me and busting his *** to get off at the snap, I don't think I'm calling it. If I cheat in because it's a lower-level game and the field seems really wide for the kids playing and the play is on the far hash, as long as he gets behind me, he's fine.

Of course, that's just me and the guys I've worked with in the past. That's not to say that's the best way, just a way they (and I) are comfortable with.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

At the NFL level, I'm thinking, yeah, they should.

But at the high school level, if I'm a wing and the guy's even with me and busting his *** to get off at the snap, I don't think I'm calling it. If I cheat in because it's a lower-level game and the field seems really wide for the kids playing and the play is on the far hash, as long as he gets behind me, he's fine.

Of course, that's just me and the guys I've worked with in the past. That's not to say that's the best way, just a way they (and I) are comfortable with.

I get films of my crew working every year. I remind my crew to count the players and make sure they are giving the visible signal on each play for 2 reasons - one is so we are communicating with each other well and the other is so it can be seen on the video.

Maybe in a freshman game I feel we could get away with this, but on Friday night there are a few cameras taping the game and both coaching staffs will be watching later. I'll be darned if I'm going to let something like this go only to have it show up on the film later. You cannot possibly argue with the flag with the player still on the field.

I'm happy to let crews do whatever they like here - I'm just telling you how my crew handles it.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I get films of my crew working every year. I remind my crew to count the players and make sure they are giving the visible signal on each play for 2 reasons - one is so we are communicating with each other well and the other is so it can be seen on the video.

I learned that early on, and it's a good point. You never know who is watching. Both of those are good reasons to signal.

Maybe in a freshman game I feel we could get away with this, but on Friday night there are a few cameras taping the game and both coaching staffs will be watching later. I'll be darned if I'm going to let something like this go only to have it show up on the film later. You cannot possibly argue with the flag with the player still on the field.

Letter of the rule vs. spirit of the rule.

But, I guess if you go by the letter, you'll always be consistent. Fair enough.

I'm happy to let crews do whatever they like here - I'm just telling you how my crew handles it.

Cool.

As for Mike Carey, I thought he handled himself very well the whole game. I don't know why I hadn't noticed that little arm twirl he does when he signals the down after the administration of a penalty before.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Letter of the rule vs. spirit of the rule.

But, I guess if you go by the letter, you'll always be consistent. Fair enough.

I won't even characterize it that way. What *is* the spirit of the rule? That a team can take too much time substituting and still have someone running off the field at the snap as long as the guy doesn't take part in the play?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by BigGref

....They should not be able to review situations like this, leave to official's discretion. And I'm a colts fan and they do it all the time.

REPLY: At one time, if I'm not mistaken, it was not reviewable. Then there was a high-profile mistake (allegedly) where Bill Cowher was running off the field at halftime livid, showing the referee one of those Polaroid shots they take that had their opponent (again, allegedly) with twelve guys on the field. After that, I believe, they made it a reviewable situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: At one time, if I'm not mistaken, it was not reviewable. Then there was a high-profile mistake (allegedly) where Bill Cowher was running off the field at halftime livid, showing the referee one of those Polaroid shots they take that had their opponent (again, allegedly) with twelve guys on the field. After that, I believe, they made it a reviewable situation.

I gave that example on the other site and I was not completely sure. Now I am surer that was the catalyst for that action.

Peace

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: At one time, if I'm not mistaken, it was not reviewable. Then there was a high-profile mistake (allegedly) where Bill Cowher was running off the field at halftime livid, showing the referee one of those Polaroid shots they take that had their opponent (again, allegedly) with twelve guys on the field. After that, I believe, they made it a reviewable situation.

Is this the same coach who tought that his player was allowed to change his call of the coin toss in the air?

[daggo66]

Just to play devil's advocate here, do you want your wing official watching someone's feet to see if he just barely makes it off the field or not at the snap, OR would you rather he be watching the LOS for the false start that he may miss while deciding whether or not someone made it out of bounds? At the high school level I would be much more concerned about the penalty that could effect the play rather than one that has no bearing whatsoever.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Just to play devil's advocate here, do you want your wing official watching someone's feet to see if he just barely makes it off the field or not at the snap, OR would you rather he be watching the LOS for the false start that he may miss while deciding whether or not someone made it out of bounds? At the high school level I would be much more concerned about the penalty that could effect the play rather than one that has no bearing whatsoever.

Being the contrarian above, I'll answer.

No, I don't want the wings turning heads and missing play at the line of scrimmage. What I said was I don't want them ignoring it cause the player is only a step or two from the sidelines. If they miss it because they're officiating and the player runs out of their line of sight, fine. We don't have 7 officials in my state.

I also don't mind if someone else gets this if it's obvious (back judge, for example).

[daggo66]

I absolutely agree. I can tell you, however, that my crew will not make that call if he is a step off the sideline.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Being the contrarian above, I'll answer.

No, I don't want the wings turning heads and missing play at the line of scrimmage. What I said was I don't want them ignoring it cause the player is only a step or two from the sidelines. If they miss it because they're officiating and the player runs out of their line of sight, fine. We don't have 7 officials in my state.

I also don't mind if someone else gets this if it's obvious (back judge, for example).

I completely agree. If a player doesn't get off the field this is not my problem to save a penalty for your team. That is the problem of the team and the players. I think officials spend too much time trying to be safe than making a call that can clearly be seen on tape. And in this case, it was very clear on tape that the Giants player was two or three steps on the field when the ball was snapped. But I also agree that I am not turning my head just to make the call and I am not stepping onto the field to not make the call either.

Peace