Kick situation

[ChickenOfNC]

Here's the play: (FED rules please)

A) Scrimmage kick. R1 muffs the kick at his 40 yard line. Ball rolls toward his end zone. R1 then kicks the ball from the 25 yard line through his end zone. What you got?

B) Same scenerio except it's during a free kick.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Here's the play: (FED rules please)

A) Scrimmage kick. R1 muffs the kick at his 40 yard line. Ball rolls toward his end zone. R1 then kicks the ball from the 25 yard line through his end zone. What you got?

B) Same scenerio except it's during a free kick.

Scrimmage kick -

PSK - The basic spot is where the kick ends. Because the kick resulted in a touch back the basic spot is the 20 yard line. 1/2 the distance, 1st and 10 for R at their 10 yard line.

Free kick -

Loose ball play, previous spot enforcement. K may rekick from R's 45.

Touchback in both cases if the penalty is declined.

[INDYREF]

Since R1 kicked the ball at the 25 yard line, would not the kick of the R1 be the force that caused the ball to enter his end zone. This would then cause a safety instead of a touchback. The issue seems to be the force that caused the ball to enter the endzone. Since the ball was at the 25 and had been muffed, is this not a new force. Comments please!!

[ChickenOfNC]

Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: waltjp is correct on both kicks: Result of the play is a TB in each scenario. K will undoubtedly accept the penalty on the scrimmage kick play. On the free kick, he might. Or if his kicker doesn't boom it that far, or if R has a Dante Hall type return guy, he might decline it and just give R the ball at the 20.

[wisref2]

A kick ends when someone gains possession.

Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone. In other words, no matter what happens, the kick is ALWAYS the force.

A kick is a kick is a kick until it is no longer a kick.

[Reffing Rev.]

Yes but an illegal kick is the same as a fumble. I remember reading that in the rule book. I'm not disuputing anything else said, but could you construe the illegal kick is a fumble as a ending the kick, since you can't fumble without possession. Just curious your thoughts on that one.

[wisref2]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Yes but an illegal kick is the same as a fumble. I remember reading that in the rule book. I'm not disuputing anything else said, but could you construe the illegal kick is a fumble as a ending the kick, since you can't fumble without possession. Just curious your thoughts on that one.

You can't fumble a ball you don't possess. So an illegal kick in this instance is a muff (touching or being touched by the ball). So that doesn't change the status - it's still a kick. Whether an illegal kick is the same as a legal kick doesn't matter. The ball is still a kick (the original kick) because the original kick hasn't ended yet. It can't end until it is possessed or dead by rule.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Yes but an illegal kick is the same as a fumble. I remember reading that in the rule book. I'm not disuputing anything else said, but could you construe the illegal kick is a fumble as a ending the kick, since you can't fumble without possession. Just curious your thoughts on that one.

The definition of a kick says a kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead for some other reason. So like wiseref2 said, it's still a kick. The scrimmage kick ended when the ball crossed the goal line. Therefore the basic spot becomes the 20. The foul occured at the 25 so you go to the basic spot and march off half the distance. Had the illegal kick occured at the 10 for example, you'd have a foul by the offense behind the basic spot so you mark off half from the 10.

[ljudge]

In the Rogers Redding book I purchased last year he distinguishes between an illegal kick and illegally kicking the ball. The kick here was legal (meaning the infraction occurred during a legal kick) but the kick by R was illegally kicking the ball.

If K had gone beyond the LOS and kicked the ball it would be an illegal kick and treated as a fumble. And, the same if R had caught the ball and kicked it (NCAA's definition of a return kick) it would be also treated as a fumble as that too is an illegal kick.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Yes but an illegal kick is the same as a fumble....

REPLY: This is one of the rule book statements that I want to get changed. What the Fed is intending to say (but they don't do so) is that an illegal kick retains whatever status it had before it was illegally kicked. For example, if the ball was loose because of a fumble, then yes, it is treated as a continuation of the fumble after it is illegally. If the ball is loose because of a legal kick, it retains the status of a legal kick. If the ball is loose because of a pass, it retains its status as a pass after it is illegally kicked.