Was this the correct administration?

[NewGaRef]

Had this situation Saturday at an 8th grade game. 1st and 10 on A's 35. A has two men in motion at the snap. A20 is tackled 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage. WH indicates that since the foul occurred at the snap, the penalty would be five yards from the previous spot. I asked him does this fit into the All-but-one category, he indicated no. What's the correct administration of this penalty? Thanks.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by NewGaRef

Had this situation Saturday at an 8th grade game. 1st and 10 on A's 35. A has two men in motion at the snap. A20 is tackled 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage. WH indicates that since the foul occurred at the snap, the penalty would be five yards from the previous spot. I asked him does this fit into the All-but-one category, he indicated no. What's the correct administration of this penalty? Thanks.

From the previous spot like all fouls "simultaneous with the snap."

[waltjp]

Illegal shift. Previous spot enforcement. In this case the penalty will most likely be declined because of the loss of yardage on the play. If it's accepted the down will be replayed.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by NewGaRef

Had this situation Saturday at an 8th grade game. 1st and 10 on A's 35. A has two men in motion at the snap. A20 is tackled 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage. WH indicates that since the foul occurred at the snap, the penalty would be five yards from the previous spot. I asked him does this fit into the All-but-one category, he indicated no. What's the correct administration of this penalty? Thanks.

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal play. There are no restrictions regarding the number of players in motion.

[refbuz]

Yes it is correct.

The Shift isn't illeagal until the ball is snapped. The Basic Spot for any foul that occur at the snap is the Previous Spot.

All but one, only applies to the enforcement of a spot fouls committed by A that occur behind the line.

[NewGaRef]

Got it, makes sense now. Thanks.

[wisref2]

Correction to Refbuz - ABO applies to most offensive fouls, which are (in most cases) enforced from the basic spot (end of run or previous spot) unless the spot of the foul is behind the basic spot.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by NewGaRef

Had this situation Saturday at an 8th grade game. 1st and 10 on A's 35. A has two men in motion at the snap. A20 is tackled 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage. WH indicates that since the foul occurred at the snap, the penalty would be five yards from the previous spot. I asked him does this fit into the All-but-one category, he indicated no. What's the correct administration of this penalty? Thanks.

Think about this one: if illegal motion were administered as 3-and-1 (all but one) rather than as a foul occurring with the snap, where would you say the foul occurred?? This is why all the fouls relating to requirements to put the ball in play have to relate to the spot from which the ball was (to be) put in play.

BTW, it's different in Rugby Union. If the ball comes out of a scrum here, and a player had gone offside way over yonder, it's where the player broke the offside line that the penalty is from, which can result in the spot's moving laterally a long way.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal play. There are no restrictions regarding the number of players in motion.

Juggler, was that really necessary?

6-MAN RULING: Too many players on the field, both sides.

OK, that one doesn't quite work from the description, but I hope YKWIM. If it were a relevant comparison, as the one I brought up to Rugby Union I think is, that'd be different. I'm all for interesting cross-code and historic comparisons, but you're taking it away from the point.

Robert

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Think about this one: if illegal motion were administered as 3-and-1 (all but one) rather than as a foul occurring with the snap, where would you say the foul occurred?? This is why all the fouls relating to requirements to put the ball in play have to relate to the spot from which the ball was (to be) put in play.

BTW, it's different in Rugby Union. If the ball comes out of a scrum here, and a player had gone offside way over yonder, it's where the player broke the offside line that the penalty is from, which can result in the spot's moving laterally a long way.

Robert

Not all fouls simultaneous with the snap occur at the LOS. An illegal motion foul could easy occur several yards behind the LOS. Same for an illegal shift, if it were backs, or an illegal substitution where the player didn't get off the field and was behind his teams LOS. I get your point though.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Juggler, was that really necessary?

6-MAN RULING: Too many players on the field, both sides.

OK, that one doesn't quite work from the description, but I hope YKWIM. If it were a relevant comparison, as the one I brought up to Rugby Union I think is, that'd be different. I'm all for interesting cross-code and historic comparisons, but you're taking it away from the point.

Robert

Sure it's necessary. A play was posted and I supplied the ruling. Even in the Fed or NCAA case book, there are plays listed were the ruling is a legal play. I'm certain of it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

Not all fouls simultaneous with the snap occur at the LOS. An illegal motion foul could easy occur several yards behind the LOS. Same for an illegal shift, if it were backs, or an illegal substitution where the player didn't get off the field and was behind his teams LOS. I get your point though.

Get it? You just stated it!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Sure it's necessary. A play was posted and I supplied the ruling. Even in the Fed or NCAA case book, there are plays listed were the ruling is a legal play. I'm certain of it.

But the question of the legality or illegality of the act was not the purpose of this thread. It had to do with spots of enforcement of penalties.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But the question of the legality or illegality of the act was not the purpose of this thread. It had to do with spots of enforcement of penalties.

And my point was that there are no spots of enforcement of penalties for this set of player actions, because it is a legal play.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Just to clarify. The foul in the original post is illegal motion--not an illegal shift. But as others have said, the penalty is 5 yds from the previous spot (foul simultaneous with the snap), so declining the penalty is a no-brainer.