Spotting the Ball

[hsfb99]

Where is the ball placed when the ball carrier is down? Is it where the knee went down, midsection or chest of ball carrier or where the ball is at time of being considered down? I've seen what looks like some wild spots during games. What is the rule on this?

[boboman316]

When the player is officially downed, knee touches, elbow, head, anything besides hands and feet, wherever the ball is when he is legally downed. For instance his knee hits at the 42, the ball is about a yard in advance at the 43, and when the rest of his body hits the ground the ball is at the 45. The spot would be the 43.

[Texas Aggie]

Some of the "wild" spots result from officials being behind or in front of the play and not having a good angle on where the ball is when the play is dead. For example, a wing official behind a runner going out of bounds knows where the foot hit but he might now know exactly where the ball was. We can't guess, so all we can do is put the ball where the foot went out.

I've never had any complaints about that.

[rockyroad]

So to add to this question, what happens when the HL and the LJ consistently disagree about the spot? And not by a few inches, but by a yard-and-a-half to two yards at some points? Who should the R go with on this one? We had this situation in a game last Friday, and the R went with the shorter spot every time - his explanation was that the other two were not going to agree, so they would go with the shorter spot every time for both teams...it was weird how far off they were at times. According to the R they "discussed" it at half-time and couldn't reach a consensus...(oh, this was a 4-man crew)

[hsfb99]

What about when the player extends the ball forward with his arm as he is coming down? So if a player is airborne or on top of other players, when his body or knee makes contact, the ball should be spotted where the ball lands in his outstretched arm, correct? It seems the ball is almost always pulled back and spotted where the ball carriers chest lands. I've seen a lot of first downs get missed with this spot.
The only time I've seen an outstretched arm count is for a td. The ball carrier can stretch out, and as soon as the tip of the ball breaks the plane, even if the carriers body, from the wrist back, is still in the field of play and then comes down in the field of play, it is called a td.
Seems to me, this call is pretty inconsistent. Sometimes it only involves a half yard or less but, as we all know, it's a game of inches.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So to add to this question, what happens when the HL and the LJ consistently disagree about the spot? And not by a few inches, but by a yard-and-a-half to two yards at some points? Who should the R go with on this one? We had this situation in a game last Friday, and the R went with the shorter spot every time - his explanation was that the other two were not going to agree, so they would go with the shorter spot every time for both teams...it was weird how far off they were at times. According to the R they "discussed" it at half-time and couldn't reach a consensus...(oh, this was a 4-man crew)

First of all, it's the umpire that normally spots the ball - not the R. If I'm working as an U, I will look towards the closer wing. If the run is to the HL side, I'll go with his spot and vice versa. I wouldn't normally be aware that they had different spots.

If I thought one guy's spots weren't very good, I'd tend to favor the other wing's placement, but whichever one I take, I'd never look back to see where the other one is.

[MD Longhorn]

It's always dependent on where the ball is when ...... well - there's the rub.

On a play where the ball carrier contacts the ground (i.e. is tackled) - it's where the ball is when he first contacts the bround.

On a play like you describe when it's a pile of people - it's where the ball is when the official on the spot deems that the player's forward progress is stopped (which can vary widely from what Joe Generic Fan thinks should be the spot).

On a play near the sideline, it's where the ball is when the player FIRST contacts out of bounds (with exceptions around the goal line that I don't want to go into right now).

[phansen]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So to add to this question, what happens when the HL and the LJ consistently disagree about the spot? And not by a few inches, but by a yard-and-a-half to two yards at some points? Who should the R go with on this one? We had this situation in a game last Friday, and the R went with the shorter spot every time - his explanation was that the other two were not going to agree, so they would go with the shorter spot every time for both teams...it was weird how far off they were at times. According to the R they "discussed" it at half-time and couldn't reach a consensus...(oh, this was a 4-man crew)

NFHS
As HL and LJ we usually try to mirror each other as we are moving onto the field for the foot placement and the spot. Most of the time we are right on, but occassionally we are a couple yards off and tend to find middle ground for the spot. As mentioned in other posts, USUALLY the closer official has the most reliable spot. But it certainly isn't an exact science.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by hsfb99

It seems the ball is almost always pulled back and spotted where the ball carriers chest lands. I've seen a lot of first downs get missed with this spot.
The only time I've seen an outstretched arm count is for a td.

Forward progress is slightly different at the GL VS field of play. When the ball breaks the plain of the GL it becomes dead and any movement of the ball after that is ignored. In the field of play, if the player extends the ball and is downed there - he is entitled to the forward progress. But if he extends the ball momentarily and on his own, returns the ball to his chest - I am not giving him that forward progress. It was his backward movement of the ball that elminates the forward progress.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by dumbref

Forward progress is slightly different at the GL VS field of play. When the ball breaks the plain of the GL it becomes dead and any movement of the ball after that is ignored. In the field of play, if the player extends the ball and is downed there - he is entitled to the forward progress. But if he extends the ball momentarily and on his own, returns the ball to his chest - I am not giving him that forward progress. It was his backward movement of the ball that elminates the forward progress.

How about if he extends the ball and immediately yells "down"? (They still have that in Fed? NCAA abolished it a long time ago.)

[Old-Dawg]

Always spot the ball at the foremost point when it became dead.

Unless there is some other reason when two people have the spot the one closer to the ball should hold and the other drop off.

When possible I like my LJ or BJ to hold the spot so the LM can get back to his chains.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

On a play near the sideline, it's where the ball is when the player FIRST contacts out of bounds (with exceptions around the goal line that I don't want to go into right now).

Careful here...

NCAA 4-2-4e: When a runner dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.

NF 4-3-3: When a runner goes out of bounds, the inbounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Careful here...

NCAA 4-2-4e: When a runner dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.

NF 4-3-3: When a runner goes out of bounds, the inbounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

These are different definitions, do they mean the same thing?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Careful here...

NCAA 4-2-4e: When a runner dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.

NF 4-3-3: When a runner goes out of bounds, the inbounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

Good point ... a nit worth picking... when I wrote this, I was not intending to imply an airborne player, but I see how it could be read that way. Thanks for the clarification. I was really referring to a player doing the tightrope.

[Dukat]

The times when my partner across the field and I have differing spots USUALLY has to do with Forward Progress. He has a bad tendency IMHO to not give FP and in those instances we are usually off.