What Foul Is This?

[Ed Hickland]

First and 10 for A at their two yard line. A21 fades back to pass (not a smart thing to do) and becomes surrounded by B players. Unable to throw to any receiver he simply shovels the ball forward toward the feet of the linemen in order to get it out of the end zone.

Is this a foul?

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

First and 10 for A at their two yard line. A21 fades back to pass (not a smart thing to do) and becomes surrounded by B players. Unable to throw to any receiver he simply shovels the ball forward toward the feet of the linemen in order to get it out of the end zone.

Is this a foul?

Illegal pass (intentional grounding). Foul by the offense in their endzone results in a safety.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

First and 10 for A at their two yard line. A21 fades back to pass (not a smart thing to do) and becomes surrounded by B players. Unable to throw to any receiver he simply shovels the ball forward toward the feet of the linemen in order to get it out of the end zone.

Is this a foul?

CANADIAN RULING:

Deliberate grounding. Option for B: decline the penalty and take the pass as incomplete or accept the penalty and earn two points for a safety touch.

[DSMitchell]

My apologies for seeming a novice but I actually am.

Can't team B refuse the penalty?

What if it was 4th down for A, a refusal of the penalty would mean 1st and goal for team B at the A-2.

Is that right?

[waltjp]

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

Why would it be marked from the end of the run if the intentional grounding is declined? Why would it not be simply an incomplete forward pass if the penalty was declined?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by DSMitchell

My apologies for seeming a novice but I actually am.

Can't team B refuse the penalty?

What if it was 4th down for A, a refusal of the penalty would mean 1st and goal for team B at the A-2.

Is that right?

In Canada, yes, B can decline the penalty. Obviously, that is likely a better option for B. Why not let B choose to take that option?

[RazorRef]

Originally Posted by waltjp

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

I don't agree with this. It was an incomplete foward pass. If it was 4th down, it's now B's ball at the previous spot. That is if they don't accept the Safety from the penalty.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why would it be marked from the end of the run if the intentional grounding is declined? Why would it not be simply an incomplete forward pass if the penalty was declined?

Whether the penalty is accepted or not the end of the run is the point from where the illegal pass was thrown. This is the spot of enforcement and, if the penalty is declined, the spot where the ball will next be put in play.

Fed 10-5-4 If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RazorRef

I don't agree with this. It was an incomplete foward pass. If it was 4th down, it's now B's ball at the previous spot. That is if they don't accept the Safety from the penalty.

You're not going back to the previous spot on this play. This does not meet the definition of a loose-ball play. Fed 10-3-1 b. A loose-ball play is action during a legal forward pass.

Table 7-5 identifies the spot of enforcement as the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Safety. Also reference rule 10-5-4.

[RazorRef]

I apologize guys...I had no idea this was the rule in HS. I would've been screwed had I been on the field and seen this. It is totally different in NCAA. If any college guys want to know the rule reference, it is 7-3-7-c Exception. Also AR 7-3-7-II. Thank you for clearing that up.

As a side note, I think this rule should be changed. It kind of screws the defense since they don't get the option of trying for a touchdown from a short distance. If B were down by 5, let's say, and there was less than a minute to go in the 4th, as a coach I would probably rather get the ball with the chance of scoring 7 than getting 2 and the ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Whether the penalty is accepted or not the end of the run is the point from where the illegal pass was thrown. This is the spot of enforcement and, if the penalty is declined, the spot where the ball will next be put in play.

Fed 10-5-4 If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

Another small bit of Fed differences for me to learn. Let me ask a corollary then, assuming this ruling (declining a foul for illegal pass means the play is over at the spot of the illegal pass) is correct...

A18 is 2 yards (or 50 yards) past the line of scrimmage when he throws the ball forward - and the ball is intercepted by the defense. Sounds like the defense can't keep the ball by declining the penalty. (Or suppose that the illegal pass in the initial post had been caught by a defender or bounced up off an interior offensive lineman and was then caught --- defense can't decling the penalty and keep the ball?) Or are there exceptions for this case?

[waltjp]

In the example of A throwing an illegal pass in advance of the LOS, B can decline the penalty and take the result of the play, in this case the interception; or they can enforce the foul from where the pass was thrown. This is a 5-yard penalty from the end of the run and loss of down.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Another small bit of Fed differences for me to learn. Let me ask a corollary then, assuming this ruling (declining a foul for illegal pass means the play is over at the spot of the illegal pass) is correct...

I think the distiction is that the play is not over at the spot of the illegal forward pass. That is true on an incomplete illegal forward pass (which is the original post). If the pass is complete, then the end of the play is the end of the run.

[raiderfan]

Suudy & Waltjb bring to mind an interesting play. 2nd and 10 at the 50. 4 seconds remain in the game. B team is leading by 5. A1 bootlegs around the left side and runs to the 10 YL. He is surrounded by B players and throws the ball into the end zone. The ball is caught by A2 with no time on the clock

Illegal forward pass at the 10 YL . If B declines the penalty and accepts the result of the play, A team scores 6 points and wins the game. If B accepts the penalty, A gets an untimed down at the 15 .