Kill the Punter

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by parepat

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

[Forksref]

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

You really need to see this one but from the original post the ball was in the air when the contact was made, therefore, the punter was not involved in the play. Sounds as if the R defender was chipping which I would consider unnecessary roughness, a post scrimmage kick foul.

I try to use preventative officiating especially on punts like this by yelling out the simple phrase "It's Gone." It lets the players know you are there and the ball is out of the area. If I see something like described in this post there is no doubt it is a foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

[Mike L]

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

[MadCityRef]

Originally Posted by parepat

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

Block, yes. Flatten? No.

Always get the safety fouls.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

Block, yes. Flatten? No.

Always get the safety fouls.

Whether a player is "flattened" is a function of his own action as much as that of the blocking player's form. Contact that might be perfectly legal could, depending on how the opponent plays, result in a player's being flattened as much as a KO punch. You can't officiate based on how a player reacts to being hit, only on how they hit.

The rules of the game are designed to discourage many forms of cheap shot by allowing players a chance to defend themselves against a hit; they don't guarantee that all players will effectively so defend themselves.

In this case it seems the player of team B ran a loop around the kicker, but the kicker just didn't see him coming. He may very well have been focusing too far downfield, plus the helmets do restrict vision. As with bicycle & motorcycle helmets, there's a safety tradeoff there.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

But the situation was:

After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield

He's covering the kick. Why should team R have to wait for some later time when he's a more difficult target to block him?

IMO if the player wants to be protected from contact in such a situation, he should have to sit or kneel.

Robert

[JRutledge]

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

As people have said, it really depends on how the play is developing.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

If they appear to be trying to get towards the play, sure. They don't know "the ball is being downed".

Perhaps there should be some way to signal to everyone on the field that a fair catch has been signaled. Other than that, I don't see how you can say anyone is "out of play" in an open field situation like a kick from scrimmage. If they want to be protected, they should sit or kneel; otherwise, what are they doing on the field?

Robert

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If they appear to be trying to get towards the play, sure. They don't know "the ball is being downed".

Perhaps there should be some way to signal to everyone on the field that a fair catch has been signaled. Other than that, I don't see how you can say anyone is "out of play" in an open field situation like a kick from scrimmage. If they want to be protected, they should sit or kneel; otherwise, what are they doing on the field?

Robert

If a player is not running towards a play, anyone better be careful if they choose to take out that player. And if a player is clearly down, because they think the play is not over that does not give them the right to level an either. Now you can disagree, but a punter that is 40 yards away from a play and has not even attempted to go towards that play, is not just fair game. This is where experience comes into play and I think I can tell the difference between a cheap shot and someone actively trying to get involved in the play.

Peace

[PaulJak]

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul.
Paul

I did not say this was a PSK foul. A PSK foul would involve enforcement potentially of the end of the kick. I did not even suggest that.

If the ball is being returned and you have a personal foul, you enforce at the spot of the foul or the end of the run which ever hurts the team worse. More than likely this would be an end of the run enforcement, but if the run happen past the spot of the foul, you go back to the spot foul. No different if you did not have a kick and you have a touchdown run (from a scrimmage play) and behind the play and during the run you have a similar personal foul called, this is a spot foul if the ball is still live. You bring the ball back to the spot and enforce 15 yards from there. I do not even know where you got PSK out of my post. PSK only applies to a foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone which this play (based on what I have read) was not the case.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.