Kill the Punter

[parepat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My answer is it depends.

Where was the ball when all this was taking place?

As stated the ball was in the air heading to the K receiver/returner.

[parepat]

Would your opinions change if this same situation did not include the punter, but a player in the wall of the punt formation?

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by parepat

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

[Forksref]

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

You really need to see this one but from the original post the ball was in the air when the contact was made, therefore, the punter was not involved in the play. Sounds as if the R defender was chipping which I would consider unnecessary roughness, a post scrimmage kick foul.

I try to use preventative officiating especially on punts like this by yelling out the simple phrase "It's Gone." It lets the players know you are there and the ball is out of the area. If I see something like described in this post there is no doubt it is a foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

[Mike L]

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

But the situation was:

After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield

He's covering the kick. Why should team R have to wait for some later time when he's a more difficult target to block him?

IMO if the player wants to be protected from contact in such a situation, he should have to sit or kneel.

Robert

[JRutledge]

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

As people have said, it really depends on how the play is developing.

Peace

[PaulJak]

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

The Cdn rule is in place to protect these specialized players. On a KO, the R specifically has the kicker.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by parepat

Would your opinions change if this same situation did not include the punter, but a player in the wall of the punt formation?

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

A lot of things would factor. If the ball is still in the air, that is not a lot of time for most players to participate in the play if they are just standing. Most punts are not going to be more than 3 or 4 seconds. I would want to punter to participate and that is rather hard if the ball is in the air. Even if the ball hit the ground or was caught, I would not allow a player just to hit someone that was not actively running toward the play or trying to participate. As someone said you would really HTBT. And the kind of contact would also be a factor as well.

I know that this is likely going to answer your question, but you must understand that experience sometimes shapes how we view these things.

Peace