substitution or deception?

[ccRyder]

In last Friday's game, we had a "situation" and I thought we got it right, but wanted a second (or third) opinion.

Ball was ready for play and team A was in the huddle. They broke with 11 players. A1 came over to line up near me, the linesman and saw his substitute come in and line up in his spot, inside the numbers. He continued to run off the field. The substitute was inside the numbers - whether he communicated with the player who came off, I do not know.

The new wide out looked at me as most do to see where my feet were positioned to make sure he was on the line. He did not communicate verbally. We let the play go. The other team was now saying the substitute had to be in the huddle. The closest (I could find) NFHS case book play 3.7.5 says the substitute needs to be inside the numbers and not be deceiving. The other team obviously saw him as they were yelling "he has to be in the huddle"

Should we have flagged for substitution violation?

[MD Longhorn]

I don't work FED, but if your rules say he has to be inside the numbers AND not deceiving, sounds like he at least had to run inside the numbers. (Obviously the other team was wrong about having to be in the huddle). Sounds like you have a substitution violation - but again ... I don't work FED.

[Warrenkicker]

2-32-15 A substitute is a team member who may replace a player or fill a player vacancy. A substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or an official, enters the huddle, is positioned in a formation or participates in the play. An entering substitute is not considered to be a player for encroachment restrictions until he is on his team’s side of the neutral zone. A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team’s side of the neutral zone.

So once he took a position on the line he was positioned in a formation and thus became a player. One of the players that were on the field also left in a timely manner so you had a legal substitution. The entering player also was inside the numbers at some point between the RFP and the snap, I think mbcrowder misread that, so they did everything they needed to do. The other team is confused about any requirement for being in the huddle.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

2-32-15 A substitute is a team member who may replace a player or fill a player vacancy. A substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or an official, enters the huddle, is positioned in a formation or participates in the play. An entering substitute is not considered to be a player for encroachment restrictions until he is on his team’s side of the neutral zone. A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team’s side of the neutral zone.

So once he took a position on the line he was positioned in a formation and thus became a player. One of the players that were on the field also left in a timely manner so you had a legal substitution. The entering player also was inside the numbers at some point between the RFP and the snap, I think mbcrowder misread that, so they did everything they needed to do. The other team is confused about any requirement for being in the huddle.

You are correct - I missed the "inside the numbers" part and didn't catch that until you pointed it out. I was envisioning a player coming from my sideline to replace my wideout, who is OUTside the numbers. My bad. Legal sub.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ccRyder

... The other team obviously saw him as they were yelling "he has to be in the huddle"

REPLY: As the others have said, play sounds as if it's perfectly legal. The part about the sub's need to be in the huddle is absolutely ludicrous. If that was a rule, how could a no-huddle offense ever substitute?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: As the others have said, play sounds as if it's perfectly legal. The part about the sub's need to be in the huddle is absolutely ludicrous. If that was a rule, how could a no-huddle offense ever substitute?

Heh. NFL's rules were much vaguer and the Cincinnati Bengals offense used to combine no-huddle and quick huddle (the "attack huddle") with substitutions in ways that caused game officials and the league office to step in with on-the-spot and office rulings. They used to come over the ball and have their backfield "shift" in ways that included the bench. Around the same time, the Minn. Vikings defense discovered the advantages of huddling with 17 players. The temporary solution was for officials to simply prevent play until they were satisfied the other team had a chance to adjust their personnel in reaction.

Robert

[Warrenkicker]

Nebraska used to do something similar coming out of time-outs and changes of possession. They would huddle a mass of players near the sideline and run 11 guys out and quickly snap the ball. The NCAA decided they would hold the RFP until the offense had declared which 11 players were going to be on the field and the defense had a chance to react to this.

[Forksref]

I think there should be an advertisement during the Super Bowl (large FB audience) regarding "12 men in the huddle" that explains it for Fed. Yesterday, we had 12 in the huddle, the huddle broke just a sub was coming to the huddle. The player going out went directly off the field to his team box. The opposing coach was hollering "they broke with 12." No problem, coach.

This has to be one of the great myths in FB.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I think there should be an advertisement during the Super Bowl (large FB audience) regarding "12 men in the huddle" that explains it for Fed. Yesterday, we had 12 in the huddle, the huddle broke just a sub was coming to the huddle. The player going out went directly off the field to his team box. The opposing coach was hollering "they broke with 12." No problem, coach.

This has to be one of the great myths in FB.

It probably doesn't help you that breaking with 12 in NCAA is illegal, and I'm sure these guys watch plenty on Saturdays as well.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I think there should be an advertisement during the Super Bowl (large FB audience) regarding "12 men in the huddle" that explains it for Fed. Yesterday, we had 12 in the huddle, the huddle broke just a sub was coming to the huddle. The player going out went directly off the field to his team box. The opposing coach was hollering "they broke with 12." No problem, coach.
This has to be one of the great myths in FB.

I had a team last week that broke the huddle with 12 & yes, the substitution was legal.

The DE on the other team told me that it was illegal to break with 12. I told him it was Ok, he responded that "you need to read the rules & learn them". If I hadn't got so tickled at the response, I would have wacked him with a USC.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

I had a team last week that broke the huddle with 12 & yes, the substitution was legal.

The DE on the other team told me that it was illegal to break with 12. I told him it was Ok, he responded that "you need to read the rules & learn them". If I hadn't got so tickled at the response, I would have wacked him with a USC.

How old was this kid? JV or V, I would definitely have 15-yarded this one. Younger and he gets some sort of stern response, but probably not the 15, depending on how he said it.

Not sure how this "tickled" you at all (and no, I'm not a OOO ... I just don't think ANY of us should tolerate that sort of nonsense from a player.)

[Mike L]

Answering "no it's not" or "no, it's ok" is argumentative and I don't think you should be engaging in any arguments. It's a little better to head the problem off and not give them the opportunity to say or do something stupid by answering the original question better. I've had the same comment from players and coaches, to which a simple "that's a college rule, not a high school rule" (except for you crazies in TX & MA). 99.9% of the time that brings the "debate" to a close without having to whack someone 15 yards.