LSU fake field goal

[BoBo]

I am sure most of you have seen the highlight on espn by now.

LSU lines up for field goal.

Snapped to holder.

Kicker then begins to run around the right while the holder remains on the ground (with his knee contacting the ground)

Holder then flips ball over his shoulder and kicker catches it and then runs in for a touchdown.

QUESTION????

Once the kicker leaves his position as an apparent kicker is the holder down because he has a knee on the ground??

To make this play legal does the holder need to rise to get his knee off the ground???

FED or NCAA rule comments welcomed

thanks

[TXMike]

Video here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr6e8nDId4


It seems to me that the dead ball exception disappears when the kicker streaks off to the right. I will defer to others who have studied and discussed this more but why have such specific language in the exception (i.e. kicker in place to kick or who has just simulated a kick) if it is not there for a purpose?

[BktBallRef]

Under NFHS rules, the holder would have to rise before passing the ball.

The referee would blow the play dead.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BoBo

LSU lines up for field goal.
Snapped to holder.
Kicker then begins to run around the right while the holder remains on the ground (with his knee contacting the ground)
Holder then flips ball over his shoulder and kicker catches it and then runs in for a touchdown.

QUESTION????
Once the kicker leaves his position as an apparent kicker is the holder down because he has a knee on the ground??
To make this play legal does the holder need to rise to get his knee off the ground???

CANADIAN RULING:

The holder must lift his knee off the ground to legally throw the ball. In our game, the R would have blown this play down with no points scored.

[JugglingReferee]

For those who decide the video is worth viewing to see if or if not the knee remains down on the ground at the time of the "flip" pass over the holder's shoulder, the knee is clearly down on the ground.

[BoBo]

In FED rules i believe i will be blowing this dead also.

KNEE has to come off the ground.

Sorry coaches, teach it correctly and it will be a great play.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by BoBo

QUESTION????

Once the kicker leaves his position as an apparent kicker is the holder down because he has a knee on the ground??

To make this play legal does the holder need to rise to get his knee off the ground???

FED or NCAA rule comments welcomed

thanks

In NF, yes he has to rise.

In NCAA he does not as long as an offensive player is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. In the video, if you freeze it at 1:09 (the instant the holder picks the ball up to pass it backwards) the kicker is still "inside" the holder and if he came straight forward could still kick the ball. I know that is not how he normally goes to kick the ball, but the fact that he is still in a position that he could kick the ball makes it legal according to the NCAA rule.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

The holder must lift his knee off the ground to legally throw the ball. In our game, the R would have blown this play down with no points scored.

Hey Juggling, in Canada if a player goes down on his own, is the play dead (as in college and high school), or can he get up and continue running (as in the NFL). I am asking that to try and make sense of what you are saying about the holder lifting his knee off the ground.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Hey Juggling, in Canada if a player goes down on his own, is the play dead (as in college and high school), or can he get up and continue running (as in the NFL). I am asking that to try and make sense of what you are saying about the holder lifting his knee off the ground.

In the Canadian posts I write about, they are regarding the amateur rule. (Maybe some day I can post about CFL rules. ) We have only two rules books: professional (CFL), and amateur (everything else: pop warner, high school, club, community, junior, and NCAA-level).

The amateur rule is that "once you're down, you're down", that is, a player cannot get up and continue. The CFL rule is that of the NFL.

There is an exception to the amateur code that a place kick holder can possess the ball with a knee on the ground and not be dead, for the only purpose of holding the ball for the kicker. If the holder has to rise to catch a bad snap, he may legally go back to a knee for his holding duties for the kicker. And even in this case, he may rise that knee again if he wishes to throw and hand-off the ball.

It's quite easy to remember actually: The holder can do whatever he wants, but he:

• must lift the knee to throw or hand-off the ball
• can go to a knee at any time to hold for a place kick

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The amateur rule is that "once you're down, you're down", that is, a player cannot get up and continue. The CFL rule is that of the NFL.

But, last I knew, the Canadian amateur rules had more exceptions. You could go to one or both knees and the ball remain alive if to recover a bouncing or rolling ball from:

• your own team's snap, or
• an opponent's kick (except a dribble),

provided you got up again immediately.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But, last I knew, the Canadian amateur rules had more exceptions. You could go to one or both knees and the ball remain alive if to recover a bouncing or rolling ball from:

• your own team's snap, or
• an opponent's kick (except a dribble),

provided you got up again immediately.

Robert

For only the opponent's kick:

It must've changed, then, twice! When I started, and until 2-3 years ago, that exception was not present. It is now back in. In addition, a kick or punt returner can step OOB, legally, for catching said kick. If OOB upon touching, the ball is dead and he cannot advance. If back IB, then the catch is good and may advance.

On an errant snap, you are down if your knees touch the ground with possession.

[sj]

It seems LSU got this thrown at them before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8mD85c9rTI&NR=1

[footballref]

What is the NFHS rule reference to this?

edit:

Found it 4-2-2a in the exception