Legal or not?

[Jim D]

This play was reviewed in an association meeting the other night. I thought I'd put it out here for comments.

Back A2 goes out into the right flat (behind the line) as a potential receiver and QB A1 is also rolling to the right. Defensive player B1 is coming across the line and heading for the QB. As back A2 crosses in front of him while A2 is looking back to the QB, B1 pushes A2 out of his way so he can continue on his path to A1.

Legal contact or not?

[TXMike]

Sounds like one being discussed among NCAA guys and which even made he NCAA training film this year. Jury is splt although Dave Parry says foul. I disagree.

[cmathews]

Mike,
I agree with you that it appears legal. What is Parry's problem with the play? As I recall the defense can use their hands to ward off the offensive players to get to the ball carrier. B is allowed to contact A2 in the backfield as long as it isn't a personal foul or below the waist....so I can't see anything potetially wrong here...

[Warrenkicker]

If this contact, the push, it just to make room to run by in an attempt to get to the QB then I have nothing as this action is specifically allowed by rule. I am much less inclined to call anything if the ball is not in the air. However, if B goes out of his way to hit A2 on his way toward the QB then there is probably a foul. And if B hits A2 after the pass is thrown toward A2 then there is probably illegal use of hands against B.

[cmathews]

Warren,
What is the basis for illegal use of hands? What difference does it make if the ball is in the air?

[Jim D]

We reviewed this play on tape from a HS game last year. According to the state interpreter, this should have been called illegal use of the hands. I have a lot of trouble with that because it seemed to me to logically be a legal play. B was just trying to get to the ball carrier and I'm sure he did not look to see if it was a guard or a back in his way.

By rule, since A2 was a receiver and not a potential blocker, it's illegal. I don't like it.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Jim D

By rule, since A2 was a receiver and not a potential blocker, it's illegal. I don't like it.

I'm with you, but since when is a receiver NOT a potential blocker?

[Warrenkicker]

Because if the ball is in the air toward A2 he is obviously not a potential blocker. If B is just trying to get past A2 and contacts him then I don't have anything. If the contact by B is intentional then he risks a foul if A2 is not trying to be a blocker. If A2 is looking to catch a pass and is behind the neutral zone then he can't be interfered with but he can be contacted illegally. In this case it was a push so holding is not the answer. Illegal use of hands is the only call left.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm with you, but since when is a receiver NOT a potential blocker?

We have this same argument every year. Our association has 2 WH with completely different interpretations on this: 1) any contact outside of the initial bump in the traditional bump-and-run is illegal use of the hands and 2) no such thing as illegal use of the hands.

And I've posted in the past on this one, trying to find some consensus with which to make an argument either way. And even here there are a variety of interpretations in between.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Even if the ball is in the air, I see nothing wrong with the contact since the defender is allowed to use his hands to contact an opponent above the waist in the back when attempting to catch or recover a loose ball that he can legally possess. (Federation rule 10-3-5c) This is OK as long as the contact is not DPI...and this clearly isn't.

[Suudy]

Even in the original, I'm not understanding why this is legal before the pass is thrown. Since 9.2.3d makes no reference to where the receiver is located relative to the LOS, and 2.3.5b explicitly excludes illegal use of the hands as a defense against pushing, pulling, or warding off an opponent, how is the original situation legal?

Let's change this up a bit. Would this change your ruling?

Receiver A2 runs an out pattern (beyond the line of scrimmage) as a potential receiver and QB A1 is also rolling to the right. Defensive player B1 is heading for the QB. As receiver A2 crosses in front of him while A2 is looking back to the QB, B1 pushes A2 out of his way so he can continue on his path to A1.

Now the receiver is beyond the line. A pass is not yet thrown. Is this illegal use of the hands?

[cmathews]

Granted I don't have my books with me. However, I don't recall any language in the rulebook that says that A must be a potential blocker before B can push them out of the way to get the ball. In the original situation, if the ball is in the air and the contact by B is not below the waist nor otherwise a personal foul, it is legal. There is no DPI behind the LOS and unless it is leading with the head, I probably don't have anything if A2 gets knocked down....I just don't see where anyone can interpret this play as illegal, for any reason, at least not from the Original Post....IMHO

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by cmathews

Granted I don't have my books with me. However, I don't recall any language in the rulebook that says that A must be a potential blocker before B can push them out of the way to get the ball.

It does, in rule 9.2.3d:

Art. 3...A defensive player shall not:
d. Contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker.

Coupled with 2.3.5b (emphasis mine):

Art. 5...A defensive player may also:
b. Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands.

In the original post, it can be argued that A2 is no longer a potential blocker, thus the contact, even if in an attempt to get to the QB, is illegal use of the hands.

I think the question is whether A2 (or any other eligible receiver) is a potential blocker when behind the line. The key, I think, in the original post is that "A2 is looking back to the QB", thus is no longer a potential blocker.

[truerookie]

I would have a difficult time flagging this play. I have seen situations where a potential receiver turns into a blocker. In OP, I would interpret this situation as the receiver looking to seen the location of the QB until the receiver crosses the LOS. The defender is not 100% sure if the back is a receiver or blocker. Let's watch the entire play before we flag it.

[TXMike]

http://www.safootballchapter.us/VID/DefPF.WMV

This is the play on the NCAA tape. I still don't see the personal foul