Punt Formation

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

In Canadian football, the right to the ball depends whether the recovering player was onside or offside, but the series of downs ends if the ball touched the ground on R's side of the LOS.

Hmmm.... mind if I look that one up?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Hmmm.... mind if I look that one up?

I don't know where it is now, but the amateur rule book used to have redundant coverage of this, listing it under "continuity of downs...interrupted" and also under kicking rules, while the CFL book just had it in one place. The ball had to be kicked across the LOS, which I think was ruled to occur only if it touched the ground or a person beyond the line, so in the case we're discussing now it would have to have been the ground. So you could just tap a punt across the line and fall on it (anywhere) for a 1st down.

A much older provision, which was verbatim in Canadian & USAn rules, had downs restart if a team by kicking the ball gave the other team "fair and equal" opp'ty to recover the ball, irrespective of other conditions of the kick.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So you could just tap a punt across the line and fall on it (anywhere) for a 1st down.

I understand. This is not the case anymore, thankfully.

I love collecting old rule books. I have CFL books going back to the 60s. Quietly, I'm trying to snag old amateur books as well.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I understand. [The cheap 1st down] is not the case anymore, thankfully.

Thanks. How long ago? I was wondering when they'd finally take a look at that thing.

The rule did have the virtue, or drawback, depending on your taste, of making the defense cover anybody wide fairly closely, no matter how long the yardage situation. But the requirement that the ball cross the LOS and the incentive to keep the kick very short meant a difficult call visualizing the LOS, the point of kick, and (usually) the point of recovery.

Can I take it that now the continuity of downs is interrupted by a kick only if R touches or is touched by the kick on their side of the LOS?

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Thanks. How long ago? I was wondering when they'd finally take a look at that thing.

The rule did have the virtue, or drawback, depending on your taste, of making the defense cover anybody wide fairly closely, no matter how long the yardage situation. But the requirement that the ball cross the LOS and the incentive to keep the kick very short meant a difficult call visualizing the LOS, the point of kick, and (usually) the point of recovery.

Can I take it that now the continuity of downs is interrupted by a kick only if R touches or is touched by the kick on their side of the LOS?

Robert

Not sure. I started football in 96, but waited a few years until I really got into the book. I don't remember anything like you describe, and although football was my second sport (now my first), I knew enough to be a sponge.

My bold emphases that may be of interest.


Article 2 – Continuity Interrupted
The continuity of downs is interrupted:

When Team A gains the required distance for first down.

When Team A fails on 3rd down to gain the required distance for 1st down.

When Team B obtains possession of the ball – by recovering a fumble, intercepting a pass, by any other legal play, or by penalty (touching the ball is not possession).

When there is a loose ball on a play from scrimmage, (e.g., fumble, blocked kick, etc.) and Team B dribbles the ball, 1st down is awarded to the team which ultimately recovers the ball after the B dribble.

When the ball is punted, dropped kicked or place kicked over the line of scrimmage. A ball dribbled over the line of scrimmage by A does NOT interrupt the continuity of downs.

When the ball is kicked (but NOT dribbled) by Team A over the line of scrimmage and is legally recovered by Team A, before the ball has been touched by team B across the line of scrimmage, 1st down is awarded to Team A only if the required distance for a first down is gained.

When the ball is kicked out of bounds, strikes the opponent’s goal post assembly in flight on a kick from scrimmage, is blocked directly out of bounds by Team B, or is last touched by Team B before going out of bounds.

When a score is made.

[Robert Goodman]

Thanks for the update, I was way behind. I note the typical lack of economy of words in (but not limited to) Canadian football rule books, taking twice or more as many words as they need to say it. Mind if I indulge in a little editing?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Article 2 – Continuity Interrupted
The continuity of downs is interrupted:

When Team A gains the required distance for first down.

OK.

When Team A fails on 3rd down to gain the required distance for 1st down.

That was always unnecessary or misleading wording. That's not interruption, that's completion of a series of downs.

When Team B obtains possession of the ball– by recovering a fumble, intercepting a pass, by any other legal play, or by penalty (touching the ball is not possession).

Only the part I bolded is necessary.

When there is a loose ball on a play from scrimmage, (e.g., fumble, blocked kick, etc.) and Team B dribbles the ball, 1st down is awarded to the team which ultimately recovers the ball after the B dribble.

Likewise. I think they added all that extra wording because way back, there was some over-specificity and vagueness referring to when the defense "breaks through" and dribbles. But the clause after the last comma messes up the parallel construction, which is supposed to be, "Continuity of downs is interrupted when blah blah...."

When the ball is punted, dropped kicked or place kicked over the line of scrimmage. A ball dribbled over the line of scrimmage by A does NOT interrupt the continuity of downs.

When the ball is kicked (but NOT dribbled) by Team A over the line of scrimmage and is [not] legally recovered by Team A, before the ball has been touched by team B across the line of scrimmage, 1st down is awarded to Team A only if the required distance for a first down is gained.

Similarly, with the "not" economically positioned. Seems they like to add a paragraph in preference to editing to change existing language. Again they interrupt the parallel construction.

When the ball is kicked out of bounds, strikes the opponent’s goal post assembly in flight on a kick from scrimmage, is blocked directly out of bounds by Team B, or is last touched by Team B before going out of bounds.

When a score is made.

And arguably they could shorten or eliminate the above by consolidating or considering with some provisions elsewhere with which it's redundant.

But all this ain't nuthin'. You should've seen the first rule book of the Independent Women's Football League. It was unusable. Literally, the officials ignored it, with good reason.

Robert

[ForensicRef]

I'm confused, are you guys quoting from the Canadian rule books?

Here's my interpretation of the rule from the NFHS case book that I'm looking at for this situation.

Originally Posted by HL Clippenchain

Thanks, Boboman.

What if it travels just past the LOS but while it's still in the air, it blows back behind the LOS and is recovered by K? R never touches it. Is it K's ball or R's?

Anyone that can help, it would be greatly appreciated. If you know the rule citing, that's a bonus too.

HLC

6.2.6...The [expanded neutral] zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if an R player is in position to catch the ball.

6.1.6 SITUATION B: The ball is free kicked from K's 40-yard line and in flight, it crosses the 50-yard line before a strong wind blows it back to K's 45 where it: (a) is touched in flight by K1, or (b) touches the ground and is recovered by K2. RULING: Kick-catching interference in (a), first and 10 for K in (b).

I realize that second one is about a kickoff, but as I see the rule the expanded neutral zone on kicks(scrimmage or free) is a plane and once it's breeched, even if the ball is blown backwards, it's considered to have passed it. So, on a punt(or FG, i.e. a scrimmage kick)...if the ball is beyond the expanded neutral zone and K catches the ball with an R player in the area then it's kick-catching interference. If K touches the ball after it hits the ground or catches it in the air with no R player around that would have been able to catch it, then it's first touching.

Comments?