Free Kick Play

[Bob M.]

MJT asks...we deliver. Both Fed and NCAA can chew on this one.

PLAY: Following a safety and a penalty for a dead ball foul, A free kicks from his 10. His punt is nearly straight up. It bounces at A’s 14 and rebounds untouched back into A’s end zone. There, A1 muffs the kick out into the field of play. B2 then muffs the ball while attempting to recover. The ball is subsequently recovered by A3 at A’s 6 yard line. RULING: ??

[Kirby]

We have a spot of first touching (FED) by A in A's end zone because the free kick did not advance beyond the 10-yard neutral zone. I'm not sure I've ever thought about how to handle this...

B has the right to take the ball at A's spot of first touching regardless of the fact that they muffed the ball in the field of play and A recoverd. A's kick is the force that caused the ball to go from the field of play into the end zone. I guess the question is...is a violation (first touching) committed in the end zone treated the same as a foul?

My ruling is that because we have a spot of first touching by A in their end zone, we can award B 2 points for a safety and A will again free kick (this time from the 20).

I can not think of and do not have rule support for my ruling. Am I close?

[MJT]

You definitely could have a safety, BUT I can think of another, probably more advantageous option for team R. And that would be...

[Jim D]

It is first touching by K in their own endzone. Since R can take possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, that would give R a touchdown without ever handling the ball. How weird would that be?

[JasonTX]

NCAA:

Well I have to say this is a good one. To start, I do know that illegal touching of a scrimmage kick in Team A's end zone is ignored but that is only for scrimmage kicks. Illegal touching of a free kick is not ignored. The rules for illegal touching basically say that team B can take the ball where it it becomes dead by rule or at the spot of illegal touching. Obviously taking the ball at the spot of illegal touching would be a TD, but under the definition of TD this is not covered. Even though it's not there my only option would be to rule this as a TD for team B and hope like hell I have a microphone to explain this rather bizarre (and hopefully) correct ruling.

[MJT]

After further looking, I cannot find and concrete rules support for TD or safety in rule 8. If you cannot either, what do you have?? The answer to that question is the one that I have been thinking as being very "advantageous" to R all along if an immediate TD was not an option.

[Kirby]

My ruling above did not inlcude that R can also take the ball where it becomes dead at the K-6. This would be more advantagoues, MJT you are correct. The more I've thought about this play today, I just do not know if we can award TD or Safety as I don't think there is rule support for either.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

MJT asks...we deliver. Both Fed and NCAA can chew on this one.

PLAY: Following a safety and a penalty for a dead ball foul, A free kicks from his 10. His punt is nearly straight up. It bounces at A’s 14 and rebounds untouched back into A’s end zone. There, A1 muffs the kick out into the field of play. B2 then muffs the ball while attempting to recover. The ball is subsequently recovered by A3 at A’s 6 yard line. RULING: ??

WOW - what a great case play! I'd never thought of anything like this before...

So, first my reaction without looking at a book (NFHS rules):
I'm curious if the definition of first touching requires a touch in the field of play. I'm thinking not, so we have first touching by A in their own end zone. (If there is such a requirement, this one's easy: A 1/10 @ A6.)

I'm thinking there's no way this can be a touchdown - that (with one exception, which this isn't) requires possession of a live ball in the opponents' end zone. I also don't believe that this is a safety - first touching is not a foul, and the ball was not declared dead in the end zone.

In theory, B has the right to take possession at the spot of first touching. But I'm pretty sure there's a rule that says the ball cannot start a play in the EZ, and some sort of provision for moving it out if for some reason it would. So my ruling on the field would be: B 1/G @ A 0.1 (i.e. just outside of the EZ).

Now to the book...
... where we have (surprise!) a conflict. 2-12 says first touching must be in the field of play. 6-1-6 has no such requirement. Again, if 2-12 is correct, this is easy: there is no first touching, and A gets the ball. If you go with 6-1-6, you've got some thinking to do...

I can't find any rule about not snapping the ball in the EZ. (I guess they thought they wouldn't need one. ) So I suppose, if you rule first touching in the EZ, then B takes over inside of their own EZ. Technically, they need to snap the ball to score their TD, but I wouldn't bother with that. Seeing no other alternative, if we decided 6-1-6 was right, I'd award the TD. But I don't like it.

So, how do we decide which definition of first touching to use?

5-1-5e is the only other rule I saw that mentions first touching, and it's no help - all it says is that R is awarded a new series if K is the first to touch the ball "before it has gone 10 yards." I could certainly argue that the ball has gone 10 yards, and just as easily argue that this rule clearly means forward 10 yards.

Normally, I'd go with the definition that's in rule 2. But that result really doesn't seem right either. Team A has clearly screwed up in just about every way possible on this one; I see no reason to reward them with the ball. Therefore, I'm going to "rule in the spirit of fair play" and award team B a touchdown, unless someone gives me a really good reason to do otherwise.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

WOW - what a great case play! I'd never thought of anything like this before...

Someone brought it up in rec.sport.officiating a few years ago.

I'm thinking there's no way this can be a touchdown - that (with one exception, which this isn't) requires possession of a live ball in the opponents' end zone....

I can't find any rule about not snapping the ball in the EZ. (I guess they thought they wouldn't need one.

In proceedings of the Fed football rules committee (back when they were first formulating rules separately from NCAA), there was discussion of renaming the "field of play" (which, when you think about it, has long been a misnomer in rugby, American, and Canadian football) as the "scrimmage zone", because it was the only place you could scrimmage the ball from. Rugby Union laws state that scrums, rucks, and mauls can take place only in the field of play. Canadian football specifically outlaws scrimmaging the ball from within 1 yard of either goal line, but that was a result of adoption of the 1 yard NZ.

So I suppose, if you rule first touching in the EZ, then B takes over inside of their own EZ.

Own? Must be a basketball ref writing.

Technically, they need to snap the ball to score their TD, but I wouldn't bother with that.

There used to be a way in American & Canadian football to score (not be awarded, but for a player to actively score) a TD with a dead ball. If a team kicked the ball OOB behind their own goal line, R1 could take the ball out of bounds, as was their option with any other ball belonging to them OOB, walk it in from the sideline 5 to 15 yards, and touch it down. In that case, touching it down produced a touchdown. (If it was in the field of play, that would be their spot to scrimmage it from.)

However, if a team carried or threw the ball OOB on or behind their own goal line, that would produce a safety only, even if it was last down. (You'd think turning it over on downs would produce a similar walk-in TD for the other team, but noooo.)

Robert

[MJT]

Roamin, a better discussion on this question on the NF board. http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...c;f=9;t=002487

[golfdesigner]

I'm gong to take a stab at this, the way I see it,
1] the muff by A in his own endzone is ignored; [first touching is only in field of play; field of play is area between the boundary lines and the goal lines, the EZ is not in field of play, so no first touching by A in EZ]
2] you worry about the muff by B, [I assume the muff by A in the EZ didn't cause the ball to return to the field of play as far as A's 20 so B's muff is prior to the free kick crossing the "free-kick line" where B muffed, wouldn't matter anyway];
3] A recovers following B's muff;

A's ball 1/10 at the 6

Not fun one to explain to B's coach, but then he probably wouldn't know definition of first touching anyway, right?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

Roamin, a better discussion on this question on the NF board. http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...c;f=9;t=002487

Wow. It may hinge on the meaning of the word "first" in Fed 6-1-5. It could mean "previously" (K's ball) or it could mean absolutely first (R's ball).

Heh. The "practical" answer someone might give in rec.sport.officiating would be, "I heard a whistle while the ball was in the air...." ;-)

Robert

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Normally, I'd go with the definition that's in rule 2. But that result really doesn't seem right either. Team A has clearly screwed up in just about every way possible on this one; I see no reason to reward them with the ball. Therefore, I'm going to "rule in the spirit of fair play" and award team B a touchdown, unless someone gives me a really good reason to do otherwise.

The "spirit of fair play" supports awarding a touchdown?!?!?!?!? There is only one time I can think of when a TD should be awarded as a result of a foul (and in this case we do not even have a foul but rather a VIOLATION).

[kentref]

Originally Posted by golfdesigner

I'm gong to take a stab at this, the way I see it,
1] the muff by A in his own endzone is ignored; [first touching is only in field of play; field of play is area between the boundary lines and the goal lines, the EZ is not in field of play, so no first touching by A in EZ]
2] you worry about the muff by B, [I assume the muff by A in the EZ didn't cause the ball to return to the field of play as far as A's 20 so B's muff is prior to the free kick crossing the "free-kick line" where B muffed, wouldn't matter anyway];
3] A recovers following B's muff;

A's ball 1/10 at the 6

Not fun one to explain to B's coach, but then he probably wouldn't know definition of first touching anyway, right?

I tend to agree with this ruling on the play (that A get's the ball 1/10 at the 6) because there is no rules support for a "first touching in A's end zone." While it may not seem "fair" to Team B well, .... Perhaps the "first touching" language should include first touching in A's end zone?

To add a further wrinkle, let's assume Team A picked up the ball in their end zone and punted it again (while the kicker is still in the end zone). Then what do you have?

[Warrenkicker]

The first thought might be that you have an illegal kick. However this is a free kick and since K possessing a free kick causes the ball to become dead it would result in a safety. If you wanted to be difficult you might then flag them for kicking a ball after it becomes dead but you'd have to be there to call that one.