NF: Tough Penalty enforcements

[DJ_NV]

Thank you for the responses..this is what I'm looking for.

That being said, I should probably take a crack at answering the scenarios here before trying to instruct others. so...

4th and 8 for A/K at their 20 yard line. A legally kicks the ball to B/R’s 30 yard line. While the ball is still loose, rolling on the ground, B/R blocks A/K below the waist at B/R’s 35. Before the ball stops rolling, IW. Options for A/K?

Even though an IW during a kick means that we have no option other than to replay the down, we do have to deal with the penalty first. If R chooses to decline the penalty, then we replay the down, no problem. The issue is when R decides to accept this penalty. The question then becomes, is this PSK or not? If we say that the spot of the ball when the IW is blown becomes the spot of the end of the kick, in this case the B-30, and the spot of the foul is in advance of that at the B-35, then we go back 15 from the EOK, B 1/10 @ B-30--Snap.

If we say that this can't be PSK because Team K is technically in team possession of the ball when the down ends due to the IW, then this becomes a previous spot foul and so we tack on 15 to the PS, A 1/10 @ A-35--Snap.

My rulebook is out in the car....is this PSK or not? NF rule reference? (And NCAA if you've got it)

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Not PSK...your last sentence says it all: "...because Team K is technically in team possession of the ball when the down ends due to the IW" and they are next entitled to put the ball in play because of the IW. (NF 2-16-2g (e) and NCAA 10-2-2e Exc 3e). For NCAA, see AR 4-1-2 I.

I'll take your sentence one step further: K is in team possession when the down ends. There's no "technically" about it.

[jaybird]

NFHS 4-2-3

"If an inadvertent whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the inadvertent whistle is ignored."

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by jaybird

NFHS 4-2-3

"If an inadvertent whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the inadvertent whistle is ignored."

REPLY: Perfect example of why I've always hated this language. If "...the inadvertent whistle is ignored," what was it that caused the down to end??? You don't ignore the whistle; you ignore the normal procedure for dealing with the IW. But you never ignore (pretend it didn't happen) the whistle.

[DJ_NV]

2nd and 4 from midfield. A1's short pass to A2 is caught near the sideline at B's 45. B1 in attempting the tackle momentarily grasps (does not twist) A2's face mask. A2 breaks the tackle and makes a big looping circle back toward the other side of the field. He is hit at A's 47 and fumbles. The ball rolls to A's 45 where grounded B4 recovers.

So on this one, the loose-ball play ends and the running play starts at the catch. Because the FM foul occurred during the running play, then the associated basic spot is going to be the end of the run, regardless of whether it is behind or beyond the NZ (which is different in NCAA, where in this case the BS would be the PS because the run ended behind the NZ). In this case, the EOR is the A-47, so after the 5-yard penalty is enforced, it should be 2/2 @ B-48. Correct?

[DJ_NV]

Hey Bob, make it even more fun. Change the first foul to a grasp and twist & then add a second B foul (holding) at A's 48 after the fumble but before the recovery.

In NF, I believe both of these fouls (well, one or the other, and in this case the 15 yarder) will be enforced from the EOR as well.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

2nd and 4 from midfield. A1's short pass to A2 is caught near the sideline at B's 45. B1 in attempting the tackle momentarily grasps (does not twist) A2's face mask. A2 breaks the tackle and makes a big looping circle back toward the other side of the field. He is hit at A's 47 and fumbles. The ball rolls to A's 45 where grounded B4 recovers.

So on this one, the loose-ball play ends and the running play starts at the catch. Because the FM foul occurred during the running play, then the associated basic spot is going to be the end of the run, regardless of whether it is behind or beyond the NZ (which is different in NCAA, where in this case the BS would be the PS because the run ended behind the NZ). In this case, the EOR is the A-47, so after the 5-yard penalty is enforced, it should be 2/2 @ B-48. Correct?

I think so. I've been wrong (numerous) times before though!

As for the other proposed play with the PF FM and the hold by B, I think you're right on that one too.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

2nd and 4 from midfield. A1's short pass to A2 is caught near the sideline at B's 45. B1 in attempting the tackle momentarily grasps (does not twist) A2's face mask. A2 breaks the tackle and makes a big looping circle back toward the other side of the field. He is hit at A's 47 and fumbles. The ball rolls to A's 45 where grounded B4 recovers.

So on this one, the loose-ball play ends and the running play starts at the catch. Because the FM foul occurred during the running play, then the associated basic spot is going to be the end of the run, regardless of whether it is behind or beyond the NZ (which is different in NCAA, where in this case the BS would be the PS because the run ended behind the NZ). In this case, the EOR is the A-47, so after the 5-yard penalty is enforced, it should be 2/2 @ B-48. Correct?

Hold on there DJ_NV and Grant. On the play from midfield, we did have a run that went beyond the NZ, but then he circled back and we have a fumble behind the LOS, which makes this a loose ball play. Thus, the penalty will be enforced from the PS and thus it will be 1st-10 for A at the B's 45 yardline.

[DJ_NV]

MJT,

Ok, after reading 10-3-1-c, I'll buy that. But only because there was a fumble behind the NZ, correct? Because of the fumble behind the NZ, then the preceding run after the catch of the legal forward pass gets wrapped up into the original loose-ball play.

However--and please correct me if I'm wrong--had there not been a fumble and the runner was tackled behind the NZ after circling back, then we would enforce the penalty from where he was downed, which is the end of the run. In this case, there would be loose-ball play from the snap til the catch, then the run after the catch to the end of the down would be a running play. This scenario is different from NCAA in that the BS for a running play the ends behind the NZ is the PS, however it's just a running play with the tackle as the EOR.

In short, for NF, it's the fumble behind the NZ that wraps this action all up into the original loose-ball play.

Also, this again is why you never bag a fumble behind the NZ before a COP as that spot will never mean anything (even with an IW, if it's blown while the ball is behind the LOS before a COP, Team A will choose to replay the down rather than lose yardage.) Had I thought about this longer, it would've pointed me toward loose-ball play.

this is exactly why I posted the thread. Thanks again

[MJT]

You are correct, it is a LBP only cuz of the fumble. If the fumble had not occured, the foul would have occured during a running play and would be enforced from the EOR. You are also correct about NCAA being from the PS. I saw a similar play enforced wrong in a playoff game 4 years ago on a fumble by the QB about 12 yards behind the LOS after he was grabbed by the FM. Big difference in that penalty enforcement that crew made.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

...Because of the fumble behind the NZ, then the preceding run after the catch of the legal forward pass gets wrapped up into the original loose-ball play.

REPLY: Exactly! And I will guarantee that out on the field, probably nine out of ten officials will mess this one up and penalize from the end of the run. If so, in my play with the down and distance given, they be robbing the offense of a new series.

[mridgway]

Try this on with an IW.

A kicks the ball to B, B fumbles the ball on A's 10 and the ball rolls into the endzone then there is an IW. This may seem simple but it may trip you up.