2 Penalty Enforcements

[New AZ Ref]

I have a question on two penalty enforcements from last nights Jr. High game.

1. OPI on 2-point try?

We said conversion was no good and penalized the kicking team 15 yards on kick-off.

2. Personal Foul face mask after incomplete pass. B tackled A after incomplete pass. It wasn't a late hit, but A had obviously dropped the pass before the hit.

We enforced from previous spot, but after thinking about it, I don't know if it should have been enforced from the spot of the foul. Also, the coaches were arguing it was an automatic 1st down. If I remember right, the only Automatic first downs are the 4 roughing penalties and DPI.

I look forward to your comments.

Chad

[ABoselli]

1) The try is over with no replay. We do not penalize on the kickoff.

2) Loose ball play - previous spot. Remember the all but one. Only fouls by the offense behind the basic spot are spot fouls.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by New AZ Ref
I have a question on two penalty enforcements from last nights Jr. High game.

1. OPI on 2-point try?

We said conversion was no good and penalized the kicking team 15 yards on kick-off.

2. Personal Foul face mask after incomplete pass. B tackled A after incomplete pass. It wasn't a late hit, but A had obviously dropped the pass before the hit.

We enforced from previous spot, but after thinking about it, I don't know if it should have been enforced from the spot of the foul. Also, the coaches were arguing it was an automatic 1st down. If I remember right, the only Automatic first downs are the 4 roughing penalties and DPI.

I look forward to your comments.

Chad

1. Convert is no good, 15 yards on the kick-off.

2. 15 + 1D from PLS.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

1) No score, no replay, no carry-over yards. Rules 8-3-4 and 8-3-6.

2) If you judge the foul to have happened after the pass hit the ground, then you have a dead-ball PF - down counts, and enforce the 15 yards from the succeeding spot. (Which, in this case, is the previous spot.) If the foul occurred before the ball hit the ground, then you have a live-ball PF - enforce from previous spot and replay. In neither case is there an automatic first down. Defensive fouls are never (risky word to use, I know) spot fouls.

[Rich]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

1. Convert is no good, 15 yards on the kick-off.

2. 15 + 1D from PLS.

This Canadian ruling makes no sense to me. Why would a live ball foul on the offense be penalized at all on the kickoff?

Down here, the try is unsuccessful and that's the end of it (whether the try is "good" on the play or not).

The OP was correct on the second one. Loose ball play, previous spot.

--Rich

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

This Canadian ruling makes no sense to me. Why would a live ball foul on the offense be penalized at all on the kickoff?

Down here, the try is unsuccessful and that's the end of it (whether the try is "good" on the play or not).

The OP was correct on the second one. Loose ball play, previous spot.

--Rich

An offensive player can push off a defender to create separation, thus giving him a better chance for a successful convert. Perhaps the official should not throw his flag for OPI until it's caught by the offense, but then you have to deal with the crap from "late flags". Instead, when we see OPI, we flag it, and if the convert is no good, we still penalize 15 on the KO (as opposed to waiving it off, which I can see an arguement for, but then we'd have to waive a flag off...). Maybe the thought is that don't commit a foul because it's still going to cost you; the 15 yards may be used as a deterance.