The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2007, 07:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,824
Is the "shoeshine" BBW?

In a coaching forum I visit, frequent reference is made to a "shoeshine" block. To fill for as many as two pulling line players, an offensive line player to the inside or outside of them is told to give a teammate 2 or 3 positions over a quick shoe shine -- that is, to dive along the line of scrimmage, reaching out to where that teammate's feet lined up. This is a delaying tactic on the back side of a play. The shoeshining player winds up sprawled on the ground and the hope is that opposing rushers trip over hir. The idea is to prevent one of them from catching up to the ballcarrier from the back side. The dive allows the shoeshiner to cover ground far from hir position. Sometimes it's like making half a block (or less) against 2 opponents instead of a whole block against one. So if, for example, the guard & tackle on one side pull, the end can shine the center's shoes, or the center shine the end's shoes, to slow the penetration just enough to allow the ballcarrier to get away from there, while the pullers in between can concentrate on the point of the attack.

So is the "shoeshine" block considered blocking below the waist? The matter is inconsequential in the major codes, because under their conditions it would be legal in that location anyway. However, some women's & children's football rules either restrict BBW further or outlaw it entirely, so the question is germane there.

I could see it being ruled either way. The shoeshining player doesn't initiate the contact, but does present the body in the anticipated path of the opponent, and unless the opponent is sliding, the primary point of contact would occur below the waist. With the intent of the rule being to prevent knee injuries, it's still not clear. Tripping over someone does present some risk of injury to a knee, but not as much as being hit on a leg whose foot is on the ground.

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2007, 09:52pm
MJT MJT is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
As you read below, you will see the "shoeshine" block could be legal or illegal, but you will see for yourself when it is and is not.

Here is a pregame I have done regarding clipping BBW, and BIB

Blocking, free blocking zones, illegal blocks

Clipping – Initial contact at or below the waist against a player other a runner or pretending to be a runner.
Clipping is permitted in the FBZ when
1) by offensive linemen on the LOS and in zone at snap
2) against defensive linemen on LOS and in zone at the snap
3) the contact is in the zone
4) the ball is still in the zone
Summary: Only offense can legally clip. All must be on LOS and in zone at snap.

Blocking below the waist - initial contact at or below the waist from the front or side and they are not the runner.
BBW is permitted in the FBZ when
1) by all players who are on the LOS and in the zone at the snap
2) the contact is in the zone
3) the ball is still in the zone
Summary: Anyone who is on the LOS and in the zone can BBW.

Blocking in the back – initial contact is in the opponents back, inside the shoulders, below the helmet, and above the waist, and against a player other than a runner or pretended runner.
BIB is permitted in the FBZ when
1) by offensive linemen who are on the LOS and in the zone at the snap
2) against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap
3) the contact is in the zone
4) the ball is still in the zone
Summary: Only offense can legally BIB. Offense must be on LOS and in zone at snap, defense just in zone at the snap. (LB’s are probably in the zone at the snap)

Butt block – Illegal – using the facemask, front, or top of helmet to make contact at any time.

Chop block – Illegal delayed block at the knees or below against an opponent who is already engaged.
1st block high and 2nd block low – illegal, 1st block low, 2nd block low – illegal
Key only illegal if the 2nd block is low.
All simultaneous blocks by 2 on 1 defender are legal!!!

STUMP THE CHUMP!
1. Immediately after the snap, B77 clips A50. Both players on the LOS at the snap, the ball is in the zone, and so is the block. Legal block by B77 or not, and explain. Illegal – defense can never legally clip.

2. On a trap play lineman B77 has a BBW on A50 or A20. Which blocks, if any are legal. The 1st is legal as B can BBW against another player who is on the LOS and in the zone at the snap. The 2nd is illegal cuz A20 was not on the LOS and in the zone at the snap.

3. Lineman A66 is clearly outside the FBZ at the snap and he comes into the zone and commits a BIB against an opponent who is in the zone and the ball is in the zone. Legal or not? No – he must be in the zone at the snap.


  1. So, if they do not make any contact and are only trying to get the defense to have to jump over them, you definitely do not have a foul.
  2. If they make contact and the lineman is already engaged, you will have a chop block.
  3. If they make contact and he is not already engaged, you could have a foul for clipping or BBW if the ball was out of the zone, or depending where player being "shoeshined" was at the snap.

Last edited by MJT; Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 10:01pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 02:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 204
I know what you are looking for. The definition of a block is:
2.3.1.a. Blocking is obstructing an opponent by contacting him with
any part of the blocker’s body.

You are looking if the contact has to be active, and you are describing that the player just flops on the ground in front of someone and lets them run into him.
It is in my opinion very much a block, and since the initial contact is below the waist, it is a block below the waist.
The O lineman knows that the defender will be moving in that direction - and is actively trying to prevent it with his body.

We had a similar problem with our flag football. There was no blocking beyond the LOS, so team mates would run in front of the ball carrier and 'place their body' in front of a defender so that they couldn't get to the ball carrier.
Technically the rules used defined blocking as the use of hands to push an opponent, so some coaches thought they were smart and it didn't conform to blocking.
We just gave them 15 yard illegal contact fouls instead (which it was).

James
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 07:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman
The matter is inconsequential in the major codes, because under their conditions it would be legal in that location anyway.
That's one of the things they believe on that board but it's not true. Once the ball leaves the FBZ, BBW is no longer legal. 99% of the time, if the BBW is not immediately after the snap, it's going to be illegal because the FBZ no longer exists.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 01:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vermont
Posts: 16
I wish they would get rid of the FBZ and make initial charge when ball is snapped; like in a shotgun formation. There is too much ifs and buts with the FBZ.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 06:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mullica Hill, NJ
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
Blocking in the back – initial contact is in the opponents back, inside the shoulders, below the helmet, and above the waist, and against a player other than a runner or pretended runner.
BIB is permitted in the FBZ when
1) by offensive linemen who are on the LOS and in the zone at the snap
2) against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap
3) the contact is in the zone
4) the ball is still in the zone
Summary: Only offense can legally BIB. Offense must be on LOS and in zone at snap, defense just in zone at the snap. (LB’s are probably in the zone at the snap)
Actually, the defense can BIB too. It's just listed under rule #9. A defensive player may block in the back to get to a runner or lose ball he may legally touch or possess.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 09:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
That's one of the things they believe on that board but it's not true. Once the ball leaves the FBZ, BBW is no longer legal. 99% of the time, if the BBW is not immediately after the snap, it's going to be illegal because the FBZ no longer exists.
Yes, it is true, under the circumstances I described. It's a blocking assignment, it's to be executed immediately on the snap, not delayed.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2007, 11:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
The way you described it above, it didn't sound like it occurs at the snap.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith

Last edited by BktBallRef; Wed Feb 21, 2007 at 09:36am.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 21, 2007, 05:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman
Yes, it is true, under the circumstances I described. It's a blocking assignment, it's to be executed immediately on the snap, not delayed.
So it is a blocking assignment... It is blocking... It is below the waist... Doesn't that answer your original question?

Trying to argue that it is not blocking because the O player is in a strange position is trying to split the hair way too fine. The O player wants to block the D player(s) and the initial contact is below the waist.

James
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 23, 2007, 10:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrye22
So it is a blocking assignment... It is blocking... It is below the waist... Doesn't that answer your original question?
No, no more than a coach's designating a player as "tight end" makes that person a line player according to the rules.

Quote:
Trying to argue that it is not blocking because the O player is in a strange position is trying to split the hair way too fine. The O player wants to block the D player(s) and the initial contact is below the waist.
I think so too, but not that it's trying to split a hair too fine, and not because the O player is "in a strange position". It's not obvious to me the way the provisions in the various codes referring to "contact" and "blocking" are written.

If I look only at the way the player is trying to gain advantage, the analysis comes out one way. The advantage of the shoeshine block is twofold: having the blocking player in the path of possibly two opponents rather than one; and getting the blocking player quickly into a position that the player probably could not reach with, say, a "reach" block or other technique that would keep hir on hir feet. The fact that the blocker winds up so low is not actually an advantage, and in fact is a disadvantage because opponents can jump or step over the blocker.

However, if I look at it in terms of safety, it looks mostly the same as if the blocker actually projected hirself below the waist of the opponent. The danger to the knees is a bit less because if and when the opponent makes contact, that opponent's leg is probably not going to have its foot on the ground, so that knee's ligaments won't be subject to the same kind of leverage. However, the opponent who trips is likely to fall on top of the blocker, and in so doing may well have the other foot caught on the ground while the leg hits the opponent, which does endanger those ligaments.

But simply trying to parse the rules in the various codes referring to "contact" and "blocking" doesn't clarify.

Robert

Last edited by Robert Goodman; Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:24am.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 23, 2007, 10:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 463
Seems to me that it's fairly likely the player on the ground is going to commit a tripping foul.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 23, 2007, 10:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
The way you described it above, it didn't sound like it occurs at the snap.
Sorry I was unclear. It's a "backside fill" type of block, which needs to cover a lot of ground quickly or it doesn't work. I'll try to put it in ASCII art:

X---X--X-----X--X---X
-E--T--G--C--G--T--E

Imagine the offense's G & T at the snap pulling across the formation for a run between the position of the opposite T & E. The Xs opposite the pulling G & T are momentarily blocked by the E on that side who, at the snap, launches hirself sideways to wind up with hir hands approximately at the C's feet, like a fallen tree.

There's no question that this is legal in the major USAn & Canadian codes. However, it's not clear that it would be legal in the Independent Women's Football League, the Women's Professional Football League, or any of various children's circuits. They use the major codes, or the wording of the major codes, as their basis, but alter the provisions regarding BBW to either outlaw it completely or (in the case of the WPFL) restrict it more than do the major codes. (The National Women's Football ***'n and many of the children's codes allow BBW according to the major code whose rules they use either intact or as a base.) A ruling from any of these bodies would obviously be definitive as far as that body is concerned, but until such rulings are forthcoming, the decisions will be made on the spot by game officials who are familiar with one or more of the major codes.

Robert

Hmph. I guess I'll have to abbr. that "Assoc." here! Or does that get bleeped too?

Last edited by Robert Goodman; Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 04:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 23, 2007, 01:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 127
Under NCAA rules this would be BBW. We've called (at least once or twice) a similar block on scrimmage kick plays (where BBW is prohibited) when blockers turn almost sideways, go down to one knee, and lay their helmet on the backside of the adjacent lineman. The resulting "block" has the contact actually initiated by the oncoming defensive lineman, with the initial contact below the waist of the defender.

By design and intent (similar to the "shoeshine block" described here) the blocker has placed himself in a position where the initial contact with the opponent will be below the waist. If it occurs at a time or place where BBW is illegal, I'd throw the flag.
__________________
"It's easy to get the players, Getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part." - Casey Stengel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The 3 versus 2 fallacies, a mini-rant - "Part deux" imaref Basketball 6 Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:39am
Why "general" and "additional"? Back In The Saddle Basketball 1 Sat Oct 07, 2006 02:56pm
"Balk" or "Ball" johnnyg08 Baseball 9 Fri Aug 18, 2006 08:26am
2007 NFHS Rules Changes - "Step and Reach" Dakota Softball 8 Mon Jul 10, 2006 02:46pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1