Replay reviews WF vs Lou

[NickelDeuce]

I thought it was pretty clear on the 1st fumble by WF that the ball was definitely moving before his knee hit. If any of you didn't see the ball start to move, if you'll go back and watch it you'll probably see it.

I don't think the definition of fumble needs to be revisited. It's either moving or not. In this case it was moving before the knee hit.

The second one was just tight all the way around. Go with the official.

[Rick KY]

Whether the ball is moving or not, and I agree it was moving, the ball was still trapped against the runner's body by his hand. It is not loose before the knee touched the ground. It is not as though he was juggling the ball. like a receive might do trying to catch a pass. Coming loose and being loose are not the same thing, just like gaining possession and having possession are not the same thing.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by NickelDeuce

I thought it was pretty clear on the 1st fumble by WF that the ball was definitely moving before his knee hit. If any of you didn't see the ball start to move, if you'll go back and watch it you'll probably see it.

No, I disagree. It was not a fumble IMO. I watched it several times.

[Theisey]

That's my perspective on that play as well BBref. I saw no fumble action prior to player being legally down.

[schmitty1973]

I thought the ball was on it's way out before his knee hit the ground. Since it was ruled a fumble at first, there wasn't enough evidence to overrule it. But thats just my opinion.

[Rick KY]

I think the question that needs to be answered is "When does a ball become loose?" In my opinion, this ball was not loose, though the runner may have not had a good grasp of the ball, he did have it trapped against his body by one hand. Also, was the when in doubt rule applied here. I thought that when in doubt the runner is down, no fumble.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rick KY

I think the question that needs to be answered is "When does a ball become loose?" In my opinion, this ball was not loose, though the runner may have not had a good grasp of the ball, he did have it trapped against his body by one hand. Also, was the when in doubt rule applied here. I thought that when in doubt the runner is down, no fumble.

You keep saying, "He may not have had control of the ball, but it wasn't a fumble." You probably are not an official - if you were, you would know that a ball not controlled is a loose ball - whether this ball started from a point of possession (i.e. pre-fumble) or a point of non-possession (i.e. pre-catch or pre-recovery) is not material. If he doesn't, as you say, have control of the ball, then the ball is loose. Once the ball started involuntarily moving, it's loose.

Thus, a fumble in this particular case.

[Rick KY]

Mcrowder, I am an official of the NFHS variety. I did not say he did not have control. I said he did not have a good grasp, but he had it trapped between his hand and his body. I believe a player can possess a ball without having a good grasp. I was also asking about defining the precise moment when a ball comes loose. In the play being discussed, the player had the ball in his firm possession until he hit the pile. As he went down to his knee the ball appeared to slide from the tucked position up his torso, but he still had his hand trapping tehb all against his body. After his knee touched, the ball came completely out. So the question I have is when did the fumble occur. Since a fumble is a losse ball, and the ball was not loose until after the knee touched. how can this be ruled a fumble?

[NickelDeuce]

Coming loose is the same thing as being loose if at the end of the play the ball is loose. That's what happened on this play. The ball is coming loose in his hands before his knee hits the ground. Then the ball comes out after his knee and body hit.

[NickelDeuce]

Rick Ky, the rule is when in doubt call it a fumble. Especially in NFL and NCAA. Let replay fix the fumble, they can't fix the down by contact call. Besides, some say, if they don't want a fumble called, hold on to the ball.

[Rick KY]

Did the when in doubt rule change due to use of video reviews? What other when in doubt rules changed?

[sloth]

Instant reply has facilitated the change in the "when in doubt" rules. Logic being that a whistle kills the play and is not reviewable. With the ability to replay an action, a IW looks really bad when viedo proves that the play was not dead. If you let the play go, you can alway review it and go back to fix the call.

I do not agree that there has been any change in the "when in doubt" rules at the HS level.


I really like the use of the sideline warning. Very effective. The HC was pretty hot and the only way to cool him off was a flag. Better to not enforce yardage and just give a warning.