Confused about 1-point safeties...

[Mike22Official]

Team A try. Let's just say for some stupid reason, Quarterback A6 runs all the way back to A's goalline, where he falls down.

Is this a 1-point or 2-point safety awarded to Team B?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Mike22Official

Team A try. Let's just say for some stupid reason, Quarterback A6 runs all the way back to A's goalline, where he falls down.

Is this a 1-point or 2-point safety awarded to Team B?

REPLY: For Federation, it is neither. B cannot ever, ever score under current Fed rules. All it amounts to is the end of the try.

NCAA rules are different though.

[Mike22Official]

Yeah I read after posting that the ball becomes dead on tries once B gains possession. I never knew that about high school ball.

But what's the call for NCAA and NFL?

[Theisey]

However, Team-A can score a 1-point safety during a TRY down. Do you see how?

[Mike22Official]

Originally Posted by Theisey

However, Team-A can score a 1-point safety during a TRY down. Do you see how?

No, I don't see how, if under Fed rules it says in 8-3-2a that the try becomes dead once Team B has secured possession. I thought this was what's prohibiting B from scoring 2 points like in the NCAA. I also thought this means that 1 point safety would be impossible since the play is dead once B has gained possession. How could a 1-point safety occur?

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by Mike22Official

No, I don't see how, if under Fed rules it says in 8-3-2a that the try becomes dead once Team B has secured possession. I thought this was what's prohibiting B from scoring 2 points like in the NCAA. I also thought this means that 1 point safety would be impossible since the play is dead once B has gained possession. How could a 1-point safety occur?

Fully read the definition of "force" and then see if you can answer Theisey's question.

[Mike22Official]

I read the definition of force and still do not understand.

Force isn't even mentioned in 8-3-2a, just possession.

[Mike22Official]

OK OK, I got it. For some reason I was thinking that Team B had secured possession with an interception.

If A, on a try, were to fumble at B's 3 yard line, and B66, while attempting to recover the fumble, FORCED it into the endzone where it was recovered by Team B or knocked OOB in the endzone, a 1-point safety would be awarded to Team A.

Got ya. Under that scenario, I know it's a 1-point safety awarded to Team A. I don't know why I was thinking B had secured possession with an interception.

Now if A had recovered the fumble in B's endzone, it'd be 2-points for Team A, correct?

Can someone answer my question about, in the NCAA, what would happen if A was tackled in their own endzone on a try?

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Mike22Official

OK OK, I got it. For some reason I was thinking that Team B had secured possession with an interception.

If A, on a try, were to fumble at B's 3 yard line, and B66, while attempting to recover the fumble, FORCED it into the endzone where it was recovered by Team B or knocked OOB in the endzone, a 1-point safety would be awarded to Team A.

You are correct, but I'm going to be picky here since you are a new official

The word "force" as it pertains to NFHS rules is not a verb, it is a noun. The ball is never "forced." Paraphrasing the definition, force may result from the ball being batted, muffed, kicked, or passed. Now, one thing to keep in mind in your situation. A new force MAY result when a grounded ball is batted, muffed, or kicked. In your situation, we have to be 100% positive that B's force casued the ball to go from the field of play into the endzone (i.e. across the goal-line). If A fumbles the ball and it is rolling toward the end zone at a decent pace, and then B muffs the ball in the same direction, we are probably not going to rule that B's force caused the ball to cross the goal line. Then, depending on who recovers, we will rule accordingly. On the other hand, if the ball is nearly coming to a rest at the 3 yard line, and B muffs the ball, we can without doubt rule that B's force caused the ball to go from the field of play into the end zone. Then we will rule accordingly after one team gains possession. Make sense?

We are not done with you on this play yet, though

We have 6 potential situations to rule on here, so provide your ruling for the following:

We have ruled A's force put the ball in the end zone and
(1) a member of team A recovers the ball
(2) a member of team B recovers the ball
(3) the ball rolls out of bounds through the back of the end zone

We have ruled B's force put the ball in the end zone and
(4) a member of team A recovers the ball
(5) a member of team B recovers the ball
(6) the ball rolls out of bounds through the back of the end zone

[Mike22Official]

I understand that force is a noun in the book's definition. I suppose I should have worded it, "Team B's FORCE put the ball into the end zone."

Anyway, thanks for helping me out. I'm learning a lot.

Here's my attempt to answer your cases:
1. Team A is awarded two points, although I wonder if this is treated as if Team A had fumbled on fourth down and cannot advance the ball on a recovered fumble. If that's the case, the ball would be spotted from where Team A forced the ball into the endzone, and the try would be no good.
2. Team A's try is no good.
3. Same as if #2 occurred, Team A's try is no good.

4. 2-point touchdown awarded to Team A.
5. 1-point safety awarded to Team A.
6. 1-point safety awarded to Team A.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by Mike22Official

...Now if A had recovered the fumble in B's end-zone, it'd be 2-points for Team A, correct?

correct

Originally Posted by Mike22Official

Can someone answer my question about, in the NCAA, what would happen if A was tackled in their own end-zone on a try?

If you are a new official working under NFHS rules, I'd not worry about what the NCAA of NFL would do fro a number of years.
However, since you asked.. NCAA rules, permit team-B to score during a TRY down either by running the ball into A's end zone or in your example, tackling a team-A player in his own end zone which of course would be extremely rare.

[Mike22Official]

I was discussing it with a friend, that's the only reason I was wondering about the NCAA ruling as well.

Was I right on those 6 scenarios above?

[Kirby]

You nailed them. Nice job! There is no fourth down fumble rule in NFHS rules.

[Mike22Official]

So if A has the ball, 4th and 5 on the 50, and fumbles at the 50, the ball rolls forward and out of bounds at Team B's 43 yard line, we have a first down for Team A at B's 43? Interesting. I'm surprised this isn't treated like the NCAA treats it.

And I'm assuming that A's force is what carries the ball past the line to gain.

[Smiley]

FORCE only applies to balls going into B's endzone.