Announcers wanted U to signal TD

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by sj

How will he do that if there are bodies everywhere covering the goal line?


As for the announcers comment..."It's a procedural thing that I don't understand."

.....Maybe it should dawn on him to go find out. He's got hours of prep time before a game. All he has to do is go ask the U. Too simple I guess.

An announcer ask an official? That way he'd have to admit the zebras know more than he does about rules and mechanics.

Bob

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I heard the same thing and I was shaking my head too. It was Mike Patrick, another officiating expert that honed his skills working beside Joe Theismann. The umpire can certainly give a discrete signal to the wings to indicate that he has a ball in the runner's possession in the endzone, but it is the wing(s) only that can ultimately determine if the runner made it to the endzone before his knee hit the ground.

[ref18]

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by ref18

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

DON'T signal, but grab your lanyard to let the wings know that you have the ball in the EZ. You are NOT on the LINE, so cannot see if a knee was down before the ball crossed. This is a pretty standard crew mechanic, which is VERY effective, but still allows the U not to signal. The U is watching for other stuff anyway, so wont have the best look. You are just saying "the ball is in and that is all I know" when you do this.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by ref18

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

I also respectfully disagree with you. If the U is watching the runner cross the goal line, then who is watching the guard when he grabs a handful of jersey and takes down the the D-lineman to open the hole for the runner?

[ref18]

Originally Posted by Kirby

I also respectfully disagree with you. If the U is watching the runner cross the goal line, then who is watching the guard when he grabs a handful of jersey and takes down the the D-lineman to open the hole for the runner?

Firstly remember one thing, I'm in Canada, it's the Canadian Mechanic.

That's why when the ball's being scrimmaged from the 2 and in, we bring up the back ump (FJ) to act as a second umpire, we both take a position on each side of the D-Line, and watch whatever is goes on on the line.

It's an effective mechanic. There's a lot the sideguys aren't going to be able to see because of the wider field up here.

[garwood8499]

Imagine. You're an umpire (I'm not fat enough yet, but I'm working on it). Your standing in the EZ looking for the usual blocking penalties. The ball carrier dives into the EZ near you, clearly across the plane before he is down. The nearest wing official is running in, spotting forward progress at the 1-ft line. Are you going to take the ball and spot it outside the GL? You know it's a TD!! My Ump will holler, "He's in, he's in!!", communicating to me to signal a TD. I take a half-step sideways and call it a TD. I consider this the middle ground between "don't signal a TD, ever" and "we're a team". I'm the wing and I didn't see it because there we 5 bodies between me and the ball. My ump did see it and he's gonna help me out b/c WE'RE A TEAM!!!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by garwood8499

I consider this the middle ground between "don't signal a TD, ever" and "we're a team". I'm the wing and I didn't see it because there we 5 bodies between me and the ball. My ump did see it and he's gonna help me out b/c WE'RE A TEAM!!!!!!

The issue has nothing to do with being a team. You do not have the angle as an umpire to make that call. If you call a TD and the runner got off his knee and dove into the EZ, then that looks very stupid when you are wrong. I guess if the Referee thinks there is PI, they should call it as well because WE'RE A TEAM!! This is why the Umpire should not give the signal. If the wing does not see the runner cross, you communicate this with a signal to your partner or verbally, but you do not signal TD. I guess the Referee can signal TD as well?

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ref18

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

And when you work the U, how in the world are you seeing the ball and the knees at the same time?!?!! You are TOO close for this call. As said above, closer is NOT better ,and this is a perfect example of that. Signal to your partners that the ball is in the EZ - let them determine whether the knee is down or not. And meanwhile, continue officiating - do YOUR job, not theirs... if you do theirs, no one is doing yours.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

And when you work the U, how in the world are you seeing the ball and the knees at the same time?!?!! You are TOO close for this call. As said above, closer is NOT better, and this is a perfect example of that. Signal to your partners that the ball is in the EZ - let them determine whether the knee is down or not. And meanwhile, continue officiating - do YOUR job, not theirs... if you do theirs, no one is doing yours.

This is clearly a case of having to agree to disagree.

The Canadian mechanic is perfectly fine. Like 18 and 43 have outlined, it is our mechanic and we're trained with it from the get-go.

What this is, is an example of the differences between our games. The American field is 6,400 yds². The Canadian field is 9,750 yds². The Cdn field is over 52% bigger than the US field. Both the field of play and endzone are wider and longer/deeper in our game. It stands to reason that some mechanics will be different. One of them is the U calling TDs.

Frankly, you've got nothing but US training as your background and weapon for discussion. We have the training that is associated with the mechanic and rules for our game.

Trust me, we don't miss "things" the umpire normally observes.

(Then again, maybe our umpires are better than your umpires. )

[bisonlj]

If anyone was watching the Rutgers-WVU game on ESPN you saw the umpire signal touchdown on a 3rd and goal run from the 1 in the 3rd overtime to pull Rutgers within 2. It looked horrible because he was trying to run through the defensive players on his way to get the attention of the wing officials.

On a replay from the end zone it appeared the runner may have been down and then reached across, but it was impossible to tell because of the angle. The angle was similar to the U so I have no idea how he could have ruled the guy in. Rutgers failed to convert on the 2-point conversion so it had no impact on the outcome.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If anyone was watching the Rutgers-WVU game on ESPN you saw the umpire signal touchdown on a 3rd and goal run from the 1 in the 3rd overtime to pull Rutgers within 2. It looked horrible because he was trying to run through the defensive players on his way to get the attention of the wing officials.

On a replay from the end zone it appeared the runner may have been down and then reached across, but it was impossible to tell because of the angle. The angle was similar to the U so I have no idea how he could have ruled the guy in. Rutgers failed to convert on the 2-point conversion so it had no impact on the outcome.

Just saw that myself - the U must have been DAMN sure that the ball was in before the runner's knee hit the ground.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

In Canadian four, five and seven man mechanics, with the ball inside the two yard line, the umpire positions himself close to the line of scrimmage and then steps forward on the line surge to be able to rule whether the ball crosses the line or not. In six man, we place two officials in this position. (Mind you, our fields are 65 yards wide, placing the outside wing man farther away.)

Do your wing officials not know how to close down?

If your umpire is watching the ball, who's watching line play?

Sounds like a very poor mechanic to me.

Originally Posted by ref18

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

Ever seen an NFL umpire signal touchdown on such a play?

I rest my case.

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If anyone was watching the Rutgers-WVU game on ESPN you saw the umpire signal touchdown on a 3rd and goal run from the 1 in the 3rd overtime to pull Rutgers within 2. It looked horrible because he was trying to run through the defensive players on his way to get the attention of the wing officials.

On a replay from the end zone it appeared the runner may have been down and then reached across, but it was impossible to tell because of the angle. The angle was similar to the U so I have no idea how he could have ruled the guy in. Rutgers failed to convert on the 2-point conversion so it had no impact on the outcome.

I saw the same play. It looked terrible.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ref18

I think the U should signal. When I work the U, and the play comes right up the middle, the U should be right on the goal line on the short drives in and should have the best view of whether or not the ball breaks the plane.

The U is in the worst position to see if the runner legally made it in the endzone of the close in plays, plus, his attention should be concentrated on the close line play.

Add to that, wingmen should delay their signal until both have confirmed through silent signal the runner is in.

The worst possible situation is to have a runner down in the end zone with the U and a wing giving the TD signal while the other wing is indicating a knee down before the goal line.

[RoyGardner]

"The U is in the worst position to see if the runner legally made it in the endzone of the close in plays..."

Sorry guys but this statement is just flat out wrong. On quick dives up the middle from the 2 and in, with the QB or RB hitting a seam left or right of the center the U is the ONLY official on the field who has a view of the ball carrier without 4-6 opposing linemen directly in the field of view between him and the ball carrier.

That being said we still will never signal TD on these plays, since on those 90+/-% of the plays where there is a question in/not in we are not in the best position. Therefore the standard mechanic is for U to "provide guidance" to the covering official using some form of previously agreed signal. This accepted practice helps avoid those times where the ball is clearly in, but the U did not catch the knee down at the 1. If the U does not signal, then we avoid the absurd conflicting signals with the U going up with TD while at the same time a wing is running in pointing to the ground ("knee down") at the one.

The only objective here is to get it right, and IMO the best way for that to happen is for the TD call to be left to the wing officials with a little help as needed from the U.