HS Trick Play, Part 2

[rockyroad]

I've been reading the Trick Play thread and want to make sure I am understanding the point there...what makes the play illegal is what the QB says as he is walking toward the sidelines, correct?

We run a direct snap play where the QB stops before going under center (stands next to the fullback), looks at the defense, tries to look confused, starts shaking his head and walking toward the sideline (without saying a word), and then the ball is snapped to the fullback and away we go...this is legal because there is no "deceptive verbiage", right?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: From the 2006 Federation Case Book play 9.9.3 Situation B: "However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into thinking there is a problem..." It's just as illegal as the other play.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Maybe it's just me but isn't it more fun to play against a defense?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: From the 2006 Federation Case Book play 9.9.3 Situation B: "However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into thinking there is a problem..." It's just as illegal as the other play.

So if we just have him turn and go - as in motion - without shaking his head or anything, then it would be legal?

[Bob Mc]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: From the 2006 Federation Case Book play 9.9.3 Situation B: "However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into thinking there is a problem..." It's just as illegal as the other play.

Except the ball was legally or illegally snapped

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

Except the ball was legally or illegally snapped

Not following you here...why would a direct snap to the fullback be illegal?

[Rick KY]

A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from it's position on the ground. This must a quick, continuous motion and the ball must immediately leave the snapper's hand and touches a back or the ground before an A lineman may touch it.

You can legally snap to any back - QB, HB, TB or FB.

[jontheref]

I don't think :enjoy" is the right word. But this trick play has been quite interesting. The thing that makes the play with the QB looking for the "right ball" is the verbiage that comes with it. The snap I dont believe is the problem since there is nothing in the rulebook which says the snap has to be between anyone legs...rather in just one motion. I have a problem with the USC angle as far as penalty is concerned. If we go 15 for USC and let the play go off....then you have to award the touchdown by definition. If you penalize under "an unfair act" thats a different story...you can do anything you want.

Finally it seems to me that there is a line in either the Points of Emphasis or the casebook which talks about "deception being a part of the game" That is a man in motion or a reverse or a direct snap. But since the offense seeks to gain something not allowed it by rule, it is a deception not legal under the current federation book.

Anyway, thats my take.

[Bob Mc]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Not following you here...why would a direct snap to the fullback be illegal?

In the original thread the story speaks to the fact that the snap was a casual movement. If I might summarize what everyone is upset about is the action after the snap is too close to 9.9.3 B. The case book play with the 9.9.3 B rule speaks to a play where the snap has not been made.
In the Trick Play thread the snap had been made prior to any "funny" action taking place. If one follows the definition of snap which states the snap must be quick and continuous then the question becomes "is casual a quick and continuous movement?" If the answer is yes then there is a live ball if the answer is no then there is a dead ball snap infraction and any ensuing action is happening during a dead ball and really doesn't mean anything except maybe a warning to the team to not do that any more.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

In the original thread the story speaks to the fact that the snap was a casual movement. If I might summarize what everyone is upset about is the action after the snap is too close to 9.9.3 B. The case book play with the 9.9.3 B rule speaks to a play where the snap has not been made.
In the Trick Play thread the snap had been made prior to any "funny" action taking place. If one follows the definition of snap which states the snap must be quick and continuous then the question becomes "is casual a quick and continuous movement?" If the answer is yes then there is a live ball if the answer is no then there is a dead ball snap infraction and any ensuing action is happening during a dead ball and really doesn't mean anything except maybe a warning to the team to not do that any more.

Gotcha...I misread and thought you were saying that the snap in my play was illegal...us coaches are easily confused!

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by jontheref

thing that makes the play with the QB looking for the "right ball" is the verbiage that comes with it.

No - it's both/either the action and/or verbiage. 9-9-3-B. Either one is illegal if it is confusing the defense into believeing a snap is not imminent.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I've been reading the Trick Play thread and want to make sure I am understanding the point there...what makes the play illegal is what the QB says as he is walking toward the sidelines, correct?

We run a direct snap play where the QB stops before going under center (stands next to the fullback), looks at the defense, tries to look confused, starts shaking his head and walking toward the sideline (without saying a word), and then the ball is snapped to the fullback and away we go...this is legal because there is no "deceptive verbiage", right?

I don't understand why you do this? Why don't you just play the game straight up and outplay your opponent with better execution of your plays (blocking and tackling) instead of trying to deceive them?

I lose a lot of respect for coaches who try to deceive and I gain respect for those coaches who teach the game well to their players and they block and tackle better than their opponents.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I don't understand why you do this? Why don't you just play the game straight up and outplay your opponent with better execution of your plays (blocking and tackling) instead of trying to deceive them?

I lose a lot of respect for coaches who try to deceive and I gain respect for those coaches who teach the game well to their players and they block and tackle better than their opponents.

Like I said in the other thread. Whistle, flag, 15, don't lose sleep over penalizing.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I don't understand why you do this? Why don't you just play the game straight up and outplay your opponent with better execution of your plays (blocking and tackling) instead of trying to deceive them?

I lose a lot of respect for coaches who try to deceive and I gain respect for those coaches who teach the game well to their players and they block and tackle better than their opponents.

Hmmm...since when has a direct snap play been illegal?? If sending our QB in motion is illegal we will stop doing it - that's the reason I asked the question in the first place...

And as for playing the game "straight up", that's a pretty ballsy comment from someone who has never seen me coach or seen my team play...we have never run this particular play in a game, and have practiced it maybe 5 times all season. But since it's on our play sheet, I wanted to make sure it was legal - seems it isn't so it will come off the play sheet.

I coach at a small private HS - we had 20 kids to start the season, have lost two to injuries and have played the last 4 games (with two more to go) with 18 players (playing 11-man football)...my kids are some of the gutsiest, hardest-hitting kids I've ever been around...they play hard and they play well.

And as for wheteh or not you respect me as a coach, all I can do is shrug...

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hmmm...since when has a direct snap play been illegal?? If sending our QB in motion is illegal we will stop doing it - that's the reason I asked the question in the first place...

It's not. The play you describe is though.

And as for playing the game "straight up", that's a pretty ballsy comment from someone who has never seen me coach or seen my team play...

We run a direct snap play where the QB stops before going under center (stands next to the fullback), looks at the defense, tries to look confused, starts shaking his head and walking toward the sideline (without saying a word), and then the ball is snapped to the fullback and away we go...

Yeah ...ok. you play the game straight up ... except for the play that this whole post is about. Whatever. think what you like about yourself, but it's not accurate.