Faceguarding - What is this?

[MIcoach]

the official was throwing the flag.

i am suspecting that it is a DPI, but you dont see either the defender or the rec. until the camera turns to them. if it was from prior contact, the official waited to long to throw the flag, IMO, but looking as how the defender had his hand on the rec, this would constitute a DPI penalty if i understand it correctly. there is no way that faceguarding should be called, but it is a judgement call, so hard to say what was going thru the officials mind if he did flag it for faceguarding.

another question comes to mind though. i have heard that there is techniqually no PI until the ball leaves the throwers hand. is this correct? and if it is, who's responsibility is it to see whether the ball has left yet? i would find it hard as a backjudge to watch both the pass and the contact downfield if it was mine.

[JasonTX]

I was lurking around where this play was originally posted. According to the person posting the play at that site, he stated that the foul was reported as faceguarding.

[jontheref]

I like the no-call on this better than I like the flag. If we are playing advantage - disadvantage (sorry basketball guys) then since the ball is intercepted in front of R than where is the disadvantage. In addition, as many have stated, there is a pretty good effort at defense....Defended goes up and the intercepter cuts in front.

Now what happens when the penalty is reported. We basically have a foul-- or alleged foul-- on a player who is not agreived. Over simplifying, just as we dont call a hold away from the ball...should we call a foul on a player one level removed from the action. If the ball goes through, I can probably make a better case for FGing....but even then its a pretty good defensive action.

[grantsrc]

Regardless of seeing the whole play and given the fact that this thread is titled "faceguarding," I would say the flag is for DPI faceguarding. This shouldn't be called folks. Plus, look at the timing of the flag, it comes out after the ball has been intercepted so there really is no plausable reason the flag came out that late. Well I guess it could be OPI and the B was waiting to see if the ball crossed the LOS, but again, the thread's title gives it away.

BTW- MJT, congrats! 1001 posts. That's quite the accomplishment.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

BTW- MJT, congrats! 1001 posts. That's quite the accomplishment.

Hadn't noticed. That just shows that I stay up late at nights and work the boards while the wife watches movies. Sure have had fun and learned plenty with you boys though.

[JugglingReferee]

I got nutin'.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Plus, look at the timing of the flag, it comes out after the ball has been intercepted so there really is no plausable reason the flag came out that late.

Grant, while I agree that this doesn't look like like a foul based upon what we can see I am hesitant about ever critisizing an official for a late flag. I know there's been more than one occassion where I reach for my flag and either missed it or grabbed my beanbag by mistake. I think there was also a whiff on a flag in the super bowl last year that made it appear that the flag was late.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Grant, while I agree that this doesn't look like like a foul based upon what we can see I am hesitant about ever critisizing an official for a late flag. I know there's been more than one occassion where I reach for my flag and either missed it or grabbed my beanbag by mistake. I think there was also a whiff on a flag in the super bowl last year that made it appear that the flag was late.

Walt, just to clarify, I'm not criticizing the timing of the flag, rather I was responding to another post saying the flag came out late. There are times that we're instructed to hold a flag until something else happens, i.e. ineligibles downfield, OPI, etc.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Walt, just to clarify, I'm not criticizing the timing of the flag, rather I was responding to another post saying the flag came out late. There are times that we're instructed to hold a flag until something else happens, i.e. ineligibles downfield, OPI, etc.

Gotcha!

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

another question comes to mind though. i have heard that there is techniqually no PI until the ball leaves the throwers hand. is this correct? and if it is, who's responsibility is it to see whether the ball has left yet? i would find it hard as a backjudge to watch both the pass and the contact downfield if it was mine.

For the defense, yes. Pass interference restrictions begin with the pass.

[FootballRef05]

[QUOTE=MIcoach]the official was throwing the flag.

the official waited to long to throw the flag, IMO,

Where in the rule book or the manual do you see anything where the official has to throw his flag immediately? There is no reason we have to throw a flag until we are sure of what we have. The term late flag by the "talking heads" on TV every week leads people to believe that an official is unsure of what he is doing rather than taking the time to process what he sees and making the correct call. Of course we want to make calls in a timely fashion, however I don't think is is fair to say he waited to long to call a foul.

[BigFarns]

[QUOTE=FootballRef05]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

the official was throwing the flag.

the official waited to long to throw the flag, IMO,

Where in the rule book or the manual do you see anything where the official has to throw his flag immediately? There is no reason we have to throw a flag until we are sure of what we have. The term late flag by the "talking heads" on TV every week leads people to believe that an official is unsure of what he is doing rather than taking the time to process what he sees and making the correct call. Of course we want to make calls in a timely fashion, however I don't think is is fair to say he waited to long to call a foul.

I was just about to mention this. People thinking the flag should come out simultaneously with the foul occuring are being unreasonable.
I have been hampered lately by this logic when I waited to throw the flag on a play because I was literally replaying it in my head. I dropped the flag and everyone lost their mind. After this I was advised that I can't make a call more than a second after it's happen. That I should see most calls coming and rule immediately. Well that was about a month or so ago and in that time I'd say I've had 3 of the worst games I've ever done. Much, much worse than even my first JV game. Why? Cause I've called almost nothing and the couple I have called I seriously can not verify in my mind that they happen cause I was anticipating. Basically I got myself all screwed up. So now it's back to how I used to do it. See it, replay it if it's "funny looking" and then rule. Yeah I'll get a couple of those "hey you only ruled after you saw us intercept, your cheating" type of arguments but I'll be able to go home knowing I've done my job as well as I could.

Oh, sorry...didn't mean to hijack the thread....back to the original thread. I don't see any faceguarding either which by the title of the thread is what was called here. If they are calling something that happen earlier in the play then obviously we can't see it but it's definately not a faceguard.

[Bob M.]

[QUOTE=BigFarns]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

...After this I was advised that I can't make a call more than a second after it's happen. That I should see most calls coming and rule immediately.

REPLY: For whomever told you that, I would strongly advise him to get to a 21st century officiating clinic and get with accepted modern officiating techniques. You can always anticipate the play, but you never should anticipate a foul. See the action...read its relevance to the play...assess it to determine whether an advantage was gained...then decide whether to throw or not. If it takes a few seconds, that's a small price to pay for getting the call ultimately right.

[FootballRef05]

[QUOTE=Bob M.]

Originally Posted by BigFarns

REPLY: For whomever told you that, I would strongly advise him to get to a 21st century officiating clinic and get with accepted modern officiating techniques. You can always anticipate the play, but you never should anticipate a foul. See the action...read its relevance to the play...assess it to determine whether an advantage was gained...then decide whether to throw or not. If it takes a few seconds, that's a small price to pay for getting the call ultimately right.

Hey Bob, just wanted to clarify that I was not told that, that quote was taken from my original reply. I was as floored as you were when I read that. Your reply was well stated, as usual!

[MIcoach]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

Where in the rule book or the manual do you see anything where the official has to throw his flag immediately? There is no reason we have to throw a flag until we are sure of what we have. The term late flag by the "talking heads" on TV every week leads people to believe that an official is unsure of what he is doing rather than taking the time to process what he sees and making the correct call. Of course we want to make calls in a timely fashion, however I don't think is is fair to say he waited to long to call a foul.

not being a football official, i do not know if there is a time in which you are supposed to throw a flag. but to me, the time that was waited before pulling the flag was to long. i understand you have to replay everything in your mind, but how long is to long? to me, if you see a foul, there really is no replaying it in your mind, it is a foul and the flag should be thrown. if you are not sure if there is a foul then, yes think it through, but it shouldnt take as long as it took that official to throw the flag. again, this is just my opinion as a coach/spectator/parent. maybe next year if i sign up to become an official i will have a different opinion of this, but this is my opinion right now.