Article: HS Trick play

[waltjp]

This play doesn't pass the 'stink test'. This isn't a fake hand off, it's using verbiage to deceive. Flag it.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by waltjp

This play doesn't pass the 'stink test'. This isn't a fake hand off, it's using verbiage to deceive. Flag it.

Let's be careful here. "Using verbiage to deceive" is not illegal.

Using verbiage to deceive the defense into believing a snap is not imminent is illegal.

The USC described in the initial play is not illegal under THIS rule. It's illegal, basically, under the God rule, and via direct instruction from the NCAA and FED that they do not want the "wrong ball" or "Where's the tee" plays to be legal.

We cannot throw this one under the blanket of "using verbiage to deceive" is illegal. Players use verbiage all the time to deceive. Faking an audible to thwart an apparent blitz. Varying the snapcount. Even a receiver acting injured to draw his coverage elsewhere, or a QB telling a WR to go long when he doesn't go long, is not illegal.

[cougar729]

I've had a difficult time thinking about what I would do on this play, One part says that you kill it and flag USC on Team A, also you have to let it go (no foul kills the play), we had a legal snap... but if you do let it go and they score, then your looking at enforcing the USC on the try, in essence allowing A to score using an illegal tactic.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by cougar729

I've had a difficult time thinking about what I would do on this play, One part says that you kill it and flag USC on Team A, also you have to let it go (no foul kills the play), we had a legal snap... but if you do let it go and they score, then your looking at enforcing the USC on the try, in essence allowing A to score using an illegal tactic.

REPLY: If you decide to flag it, wait for the snap just to make sure that it was not an honest attempt to get something sorted out, and then blow it dead, Football Fundamental be damned. That's the way that the NF Case Book play 9.9.3 Situation B calls for it to be handled. You just can't allow the play to count with succeeding spot enforcement.

[mcrowder]

It's not USC - it's Unfair Acts, which does kill the play, and enforcement is from the original LOS.

[Bob Mc]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: If you decide to flag it, wait for the snap just to make sure that it was not an honest attempt to get something sorted out, and then blow it dead, Football Fundamental be damned. That's the way that the NF Case Book play 9.9.3 Situation B calls for it to be handled. You just can't allow the play to count with succeeding spot enforcement.

...into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent...Just to get to the end of 9.9.3 B. In the play that started this discussion you have a snap and you have a live ball. I agree, had this all happened prior to the snap but in fact it did not.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

...into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent...Just to get to the end of 9.9.3 B. In the play that started this discussion you have a snap and you have a live ball. I agree, had this all happened prior to the snap but in fact it did not.

What are you saying? Foul or no foul?

[Bob Mc]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What are you saying? Foul or no foul?

Back to my original comment. What you have is a legal snap, a live ball and a defense that is asleep. Yeah it does not look pretty, but once the ball is live...

[kdf5]

This play is too close to the "snap isn't imminent" play that I wouldn't let it go. I don't know if I'd get supported or not but I'm not letting it go.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by kdf5

This play is too close to the "snap isn't imminent" play that I wouldn't let it go. I don't know if I'd get supported or not but I'm not letting it go.

Don't let it go. It's illegal ... just not for the reason you say it is. It has nothing to do, in fact, with the rule you are citing. It is still illegal. Our only RULE backing is the God rule... but our intent backing comes straight from NCAA bulletins, clinics, FED rulings etc. This is the same as the "wrong ball" play. Illegal. Kill it, flag it, walk it.

[dokeeffe]

Originally Posted by cougar729

I've had a difficult time thinking about what I would do on this play, One part says that you kill it and flag USC on Team A, also you have to let it go (no foul kills the play), we had a legal snap... but if you do let it go and they score, then your looking at enforcing the USC on the try, in essence allowing A to score using an illegal tactic.

The play certainly fits under the "God" rule. I don't think anyone has disputed that. It certainly "tends to make a travesty of the game".The penalty is any the Referee "considers equitable". While the signal is S27, remember that is both unsportsmanlike and NONCONTACT. So why not 15 yards from the spot of the foul - the spot the q-back makes the utterance? As long as it's a noncontact vs unsportsmanlike, there is no mandate to enforce from the succeeding spot. Right? It isn't specifically covered so let's use common sense and fair play.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by dokeeffe

The play certainly fits under the "God" rule. I don't think anyone has disputed that. It certainly "tends to make a travesty of the game".The penalty is any the Referee "considers equitable". While the signal is S27, remember that is both unsportsmanlike and NONCONTACT. So why not 15 yards from the spot of the foul - the spot the q-back makes the utterance? As long as it's a noncontact vs unsportsmanlike, there is no mandate to enforce from the succeeding spot. Right? It isn't specifically covered so let's use common sense and fair play.

I can only imagine enforcing from the previous spot on this. Perhaps there is one, but I cannot think of another non-contact foul that would be enforced from the spot of the foul. Enforcing it as such would seem very incongruous.

[Warrenkicker]

Maybe that illegal snap thing is one way to get it to a previous spot if you don't think you want to kill it just for USC. After you see what is happening kill it and go over to the head coach and tell him you have an illegal snap and if he doesn't like it then you have USC on top of an illegal snap. And the next time you see it there won't be any decision for that coach to make about what type of foul he wants you to call.