Video highlights

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

Quick: What football fundamental would they be breaching in so doing?

Would you be refering to the whistle killing the play?

And I agree - shut this down as soon as you realize what happened.

[OverAndBack]

Who would the USC be on? The player who did the trickery or the coach?

[CruiseMan]

Ok just to be the devil's advocate. I don't see this as being a "Where's the tee" play. Sure it look similar but we don't see the action from the ready for play or even from the offense breaking the huddle.

All we see is #11 already in motion when they cut to the clip. The rest of the formation looks like a regular scrimmage formation with two backs. I don't see a kicker there. During the play we see a shot of the Back Judge and he's in the middle of the field which to me means he/she did not read that A was in a Punt formation and thus it was a regular scrimmage down.

Based on the scoreboard that goes by. This is a 4th and 4 play w/ 11.8 in the first quarter.

Now..having said all that. I still don't like this play because the motion guy puts his hands in the air as if to indicate he's "confused".

But again.. I don't see this as a "where's the tee play".

If A already broke the huddle and got set, Which we see them set, perhaps the QB was between the backs in a regular shotgun. Then he slowly moved towards his center, barked a few signals and then ran to the sideline. How could B NOT think a snap was imminent and follow that motion man? You know there's 11 or less on the field or we already would have had a foul. Honestly, if the QB doesn't raise his arms in mock confusion, I think we have nothing here.

Remember..just being devil's advocate to further the discussion.. again...not being able to see the ENTIRE play from RFP to dead ball, leaves a lot out.

[DrMooreReferee]

I think the fundemental that Bob was speaking of is the one where it says....no foul causes a live ball to become dead. No foul would ever result in the loss of the ball either.

This certainly isn't a "where's the tee" play. But it certainly is a great example of the whole concept of the rule. In this play, A is sending a message that something is wrong. Thats where the illegal action lies. I agree that it would be nice to see them break the huddle, but it doesn't change my feeling on the play.

A couple side notes to mention. The coach was asked before the game about any trick plays he might have. He said that he had a play where he sends his QB in motion and that he might throw to him. He mentioned nothing about the acting job. One series before this illegal play, the QB did the same exact thing, then he reversed his motion and went back under center and ran a regular play. In other words, they were setting them up for this play.

In summary, this wasn't my game and I'm glad. I would have flagged it for sure. You can never really say what you would have done in the heat of battle. I'd like to think that I would kill the play as soon as it started. But I know for sure that I would have at least flagged it in some manner and NOT let it stand. Hopefully this clip will help to make us all aware of this kinda stuff.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee

I think the fundemental that Bob was speaking of is the one where it says....no foul causes a live ball to become dead.

REPLY: Bingo!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: CruiseMan..."where's the tee" is a generic description of any play designed to confuse the defense into thinking that something's wrong and that A is not about to snap the ball.

[simpson]

To be more specific, the "Where's the Tee play?" is a penalty for deceiving the Defense into believing the snap is not imminent. Having a player run to his sideline with his hands out and then snapping the ball just before he reaches the sideline so you can throw to him definitely fits the same rule. Sure it'd be nice to see the rest of the play, but I think we see enough to know this is a foul.

As for the QB setting it up earlier, in that play he runs to the sideline, turns around and goes back under center and takes the snap. There, the Defense knows the snap is imminent because the QB returned. No foul. For all we know, the QB came to the sideline confused, the coach said, "just the run the play," and the QB did that.

As for violating the football fundamental, you're not really violating it. The penalty occurs prior to the snap, during the deadball. The officials just don't realize it's a penalty until the snap and that's when and why they blow it dead. If the center double pumps on the snap and goes ahead and snaps it, you still blow the play dead. Same principle.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by simpson

...The penalty occurs prior to the snap, during the deadball. The officials just don't realize it's a penalty until the snap and that's when and why they blow it dead. If the center double pumps on the snap and goes ahead and snaps it, you still blow the play dead. Same principle.

REPLY: Not true IMHO. The intent to commit the foul may certainly be there before the snap, but we don't flag intent. There is nothing illegal until the instant the ball is snapped. Until the ball is snapped, we have no way of knowing that something wasn't wrong. Only once the ball is snapped is the ruse obvious and then we need to blow it dead at that point. In essence, this is actually a foul simultaneous with the snap.

Suppose on a FG attempt, Team A lines up and the kicker moves toward the sideline saying, "I need my kicking shoe." Are you going to blow it dead then? Of course not. An attendant might very well throw a kicking shoe out to him. Maybe his comment to the sideline was sincere. But if the ball is snapped while he's in the middle of this act, then the ball has become live, and you need to blow it dead at that point.

[simpson]

I guess we're arguing over semantics here, with the result being the same.

My take is the deception (and therefore the foul) occurs prior to the snap, we just are unable to determine if it really is a foul until the snap. If they don't snap the ball, they obviously didn't deceive anyone so there is no foul. But, snapping the ball isn't what is illegal, it's all of the action that preceds the snap.

I can see what you're saying as well. Illegal motion, for example, is another penalty that is similar to this - - depending on whether or not and when the snap occurs we may or may not have a penalty. In the case of IM, you are right. The obvious question is if the penalty is simultaneous to the snap, why does the Fed have a different enforcement? A live ball UC is a succeeding spot foul which would be a huge incentive to go ahead and run plays like this. All I'm trying to say is instead of thinking about plays like this as exceptions that you have to remember, just consider it a dead ball foul that you caught when they snapped the ball.

[jontheref]

IMO, and I must say I am conflicted...if you make it USC but let the play go off you have to give them the TD don't you? I must admit I haven't had any of that kind of stuff. Under that scenario I would shut down the play, go 15 and charge it to the coach. By rule, deception is part of the game, however, those kind of plays have no basis in the spirit of the game. Just another opinion.

[DrMooreReferee]

Good point, thats an excellenet way to look at it. The infraction happened deadball, then we should have no problem killing it.

Anyway, this play will for sure be a part of my pre-game conference from now on.

Hope everyone is having a great season.