Intent. Grounding/Loss of Down/4th Down, etc.

[buckrog64]

NFHS Rules: 4th and 10 on A's 30. A's QB drops back for a pass and to avoid the sack obviously grounds the ball at A's 20. Spot of foul is behind LOS by 10 yards. I thought the penalty would be enforced from the spot of foul, then first down for B. In our game, our white hat took the ball back to the previous spot, I'm not sure he even marked off any yardage. Then it was B's ball. Giving the ball to B was about the only thing I thought he did that was correct. I didn't hear his explanation but supposedly he mumbled something about it being 4th down and that's why it's done this way.

I believe it should have been 1st and 10 for B on A's 15. Appreciate any comments.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

NFHS Rules: 4th and 10 on A's 30. A's QB drops back for a pass and to avoid the sack obviously grounds the ball at A's 20. Spot of foul is behind LOS by 10 yards. I thought the penalty would be enforced from the spot of foul, then first down for B. In our game, our white hat took the ball back to the previous spot, I'm not sure he even marked off any yardage. Then it was B's ball. Giving the ball to B was about the only thing I thought he did that was correct. I didn't hear his explanation but supposedly he mumbled something about it being 4th down and that's why it's done this way.

I believe it should have been 1st and 10 for B on A's 15. Appreciate any comments.

You're right. So many WHs have problems with LOD penalties on 4th down and I just don't understand why.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

NFHS Rules: 4th and 10 on A's 30. A's QB drops back for a pass and to avoid the sack obviously grounds the ball at A's 20. Spot of foul is behind LOS by 10 yards. I thought the penalty would be enforced from the spot of foul, then first down for B. In our game, our white hat took the ball back to the previous spot, I'm not sure he even marked off any yardage. Then it was B's ball. Giving the ball to B was about the only thing I thought he did that was correct. I didn't hear his explanation but supposedly he mumbled something about it being 4th down and that's why it's done this way.

I believe it should have been 1st and 10 for B on A's 15. Appreciate any comments.

Did you try to stop and give you referee the correct information or is he not approachable?

[buckrog64]

No, I didn't say anything at the time because the game was 42-0, we had a running clock going, it was late in the game and the team winning was getting the ball back. I don't know all the officiating in the world, but I defer too much to the experience that our WH and U have. Trust me, it will be a topic of discussion on our trip this Friday night. Thanks for your comments.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

No, I didn't say anything at the time because the game was 42-0, we had a running clock going, it was late in the game and the team winning was getting the ball back. I don't know all the officiating in the world, but I defer too much to the experience that our WH and U have. Trust me, it will be a topic of discussion on our trip this Friday night. Thanks for your comments.

It was probably smart not to bring it up at that time of the game. Make sure you have the rule book reference with you on Friday for your trip, good luck!

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

It was probably smart not to bring it up at that time of the game.

What a horrible thing to say. If you see a foul being administered incorrectly, it is IMPERATIVE that you stop things and fix it.

[andy1033]

42 to o may have been the right spot.

[Middleman]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckrog64
NFHS Rules: 4th and 10 on A's 30. A's QB drops back for a pass and to avoid the sack obviously grounds the ball at A's 20. Spot of foul is behind LOS by 10 yards. I thought the penalty would be enforced from the spot of foul, then first down for B. In our game, our white hat took the ball back to the previous spot, I'm not sure he even marked off any yardage. Then it was B's ball. Giving the ball to B was about the only thing I thought he did that was correct. I didn't hear his explanation but supposedly he mumbled something about it being 4th down and that's why it's done this way.

I believe it should have been 1st and 10 for B on A's 15. Appreciate any comments.


You're right. So many WHs have problems with LOD penalties on 4th down and I just don't understand why.

Confusion reigns. Let us try to give the Referee a break. Is it possible that the captain of the team getting the ball back didn't recognize it as a Loss-of-Down foul, but he knew it was fourth down so if he takes the result of the play he would get the ball? The coach was probably standing on the sidelines screaming "Decline! Decline!" So without even asking, the Referee simply put it back on the previous spot (well, OK, it was administered wrong - but I'll bet they were thinking "incomplete pass" not "running play") and pointed the other way.

Hey, 42-zip brain fade - it happens to the best of us, doesn't it?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What a horrible thing to say. If you see a foul being administered incorrectly, it is IMPERATIVE that you stop things and fix it.

mcrower, I agree that he should have stopped the game and corrected the situation in a perfect world. In this situation we don't know the officials involved and the personalities of those given officials. Some guys just think they know it all and you can’t tell them anything. What I am saying is that it may have been better that they talk about it off the field to avoid conflict and looking unprofessional.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

mcrower, I agree that he should have stopped the game and corrected the situation in a perfect world.

You don't SEEM to agree with this, considering that you previously advocated that he should not have brought it up until later, and then you again do so in this post.

In this situation we don't know the officials involved and the personalities of those given officials. Some guys just think they know it all and you can’t tell them anything.

I see no reason for you to make assumptions that R was one of these guys.

What I am saying is that it may have been better that they talk about it off the field to avoid conflict and looking unprofessional.

And there you go again. Better to look good doing the wrong thing than look a little unprofessional in doing the right thing? This is HORRIBLE advice to ANYONE reading here. If you are an official, and you see another official inadvertently enforcing a rule or penalty incorrectly, it is important that you stop things and make sure your CREW is doing it's job correctly. If there is a personality conflict when you do this, THEN you might address the situation in private - but don't make the assumption that if you try to do your job it will be met with a personality conflict until such conflict actually arises.

[JasonTX]

I'd much rather look ugly and unprofesional AND be right than I would to look good and be wrong. Getting it right is much more important.

[FootballRef05]

Why would it have to look unprofessional? Last year I had WH that was making a hobbile error on a free kick and I went up to him and explained that I thought we were doing it wrong, the crew discussed it for a minute or so, he decided that he was not going to change his mind and the game went on. I walked away knowing we were doing it wrong but at least I tried to correct it. There is nothing unprofessional about having a discussion on the field.

To simply not approach the WH no matter why "type" of guy has is is completely unacceptable!

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

I'd much rather look ugly and unprofesional AND be right than I would to look good and be wrong. Getting it right is much more important.

Imagine that on your evaluation form come playoff time. "They screwed the enforcement on intentional grounding...BUT THEY LOOKED GOOD DOING IT!"

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

Why would it have to look unprofessional? Last year I had WH that was making a hobbile error on a free kick and I went up to him and explained that I thought we were doing it wrong, the crew discussed it for a minute or so, he decided that he was not going to change his mind and the game went on. I walked away knowing we were doing it wrong but at least I tried to correct it. There is nothing unprofessional about having a discussion on the field.

To simply not approach the WH no matter why "type" of guy has is is completely unacceptable!

I agree 100%. I always get upset when guys on my crew come up at halftime that they thought we screwed something up. Why are you waiting until now? Tell me when it happens so we can fix it.

[wisref2]

As officials, our main job is to get the call right.

As a crew, our main job is to get the call right on the field, not in the locker room.