Wing Mechanics

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I can do that. I'm just wondering whose spot trumps whose, because I've had another wing get really angry at me for a spot that I had a better view of because the runner fell with his back to him.

You should mirror each other to some extent. It is not about "trumping" anyone. You are supposed to work together and get the best spot. When you do not have it, your fellow wing might have it. Who cares if someone gets upset with you? An official that gets mad about this is either not a very knowledgeable official or not a very good official. Consider the source sometimes. Most experienced officials have no problem with giving up a spot. It is apart of the game.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Right. So if you're 53 1/3 yards away and the runner goes into the corner, and the wing on that side signals, no need to go up yourself.

You read what I said. You only go up when you clearly see the ball cross the goal line and you know the runner was not out of bounds.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I understand on a play that takes a while to develop. In particular here, I'm talking about the quick pass, the outlet or the flanker screen. It's rare, even if you are holding the line and haven't broken downfield, that the pass will be directly on your line of sight (since that's the line of scrimmage), but if it's a quick pass to my side, I've got to think I've usually got a better angle on it than the R.

As I said before, it depends. If the QB is running around trying to avoid tacklers, not sure why you think only the wings can tell if a pass is forward. I know at this stage of your career you might think only the wings might see this, but the wings are supposed to have the receivers and their routes. If you are watching the receiver and their routes, how are you watching the QB? This is why I said it depends on the situation. This would be like saying "only the umpire can call holding." That would be just as silly to say the wings are only responsible for forward and backward passes.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Okay, so if jersey gripping is going on and it doesn't really have an impact on the play, it's a talk-to?

Thanks.

It might be a "say nothing." Many times I say nothing to blockers unless the block is on the edges or out in the open. All I am saying is you could call holding on just about every single play. You have to decide when a hold gives a clear advantage and when to just pass. Not all holding needs to be called. If a player is being held and the team loses 10 yards, I do not know if there is much of an advantage.

Peace

[Rich]

It's not a competition to get a spot -- on Friday night, my wings will make sure they have the same spot. If both get a spot and they are pretty far apart, they will each compromise a bit and nobody's the wiser.

A lot of times, the umpire will "go opposite" on the spot and line up with the far wing. It's up to him which spot he takes. But, this is the key, by the time he goes to spot the ball both wings should be at the same place.

On the backwards pass, we had one that resulted in a turnover Friday night. Usually the wing opposite has the best angle on a backwards pass -- on ours both the opposite wing and I (the referee) punched back.

As far as the two handsful of jersey go, as long as they're grabbed inside, I'm not flagging that. When the defender tries to get away and the blocker STILL has jersey and you can see the jersey separate from the player due to the hold, THEN flag it. But the defender's gotta work to disengage.

[TNStripes]

Our association in TN teaches the wings to communicate on the way in and (1) rotate off to avoid the view of two officials being a yard apart if that is the case. It also give my box man a better view of the front of the ball if I turn to the side for his spot instead of directly blocking his view before I head to the sidelines. Very seldom is the spot that far off between the two officials but I do understand the appearance issue form the stands and benches. It also assists in dead ball officiating after the play to change your angle of view when a pile is braking up and players are returning to their huddles.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You should mirror each other to some extent. It is not about "trumping" anyone.

It wasn't for me. It was for somebody else, apparently.

You are supposed to work together and get the best spot. When you do not have it, your fellow wing might have it.

But if I'm sure I have it, and there's no way he could see the ball, should I just acquiesce?

Who cares if someone gets upset with you? An official that gets mad about this is either not a very knowledgeable official or not a very good official. Consider the source sometimes. Most experienced officials have no problem with giving up a spot. It is apart of the game.

I'm with you on that, but I don't like crew discord, especially when it happens early in the first game of a doubleheader and you have to work with that person the rest of the day.

As I said before, it depends. If the QB is running around trying to avoid tacklers, not sure why you think only the wings can tell if a pass is forward.

As I said, on a play that takes a while to develop, I can completely understand that.

I know at this stage of your career you might think only the wings might see this,

I don't, but I paid attention in geometry class in high school, and I understand angles.

but the wings are supposed to have the receivers and their routes. If you are watching the receiver and their routes, how are you watching the QB?

I'm saying quick out pass to my side. Especially a flanker screen. First I key on the tackle on my side and see pass. Peripherally, I can see the quarterback getting ready to throw the ball to this side, so if there's not another receiver from my side heading downfield (for a double pass or something), my attention can shift to the ball and whether or not it's a backward pass.

This is why I said it depends on the situation. This would be like saying "only the umpire can call holding." That would be just as silly to say the wings are only responsible for forward and backward passes.

Then let me re-phrase the original statement: The wing(s) may have a better angle on it than the referee, depending on the situation.

And, if it's one of those situations, shouldn't the WH at least consult with the wing(s)?

It might be a "say nothing." Many times I say nothing to blockers unless the block is on the edges or out in the open. All I am saying is you could call holding on just about every single play. You have to decide when a hold gives a clear advantage and when to just pass. Not all holding needs to be called. If a player is being held and the team loses 10 yards, I do not know if there is much of an advantage.

Okay, you've cleared it up for me. Thanks, JR.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

It wasn't for me. It was for somebody else, apparently.



But if I'm sure I have it, and there's no way he could see the ball, should I just acquiesce?



I'm with you on that, but I don't like crew discord, especially when it happens early in the first game of a doubleheader and you have to work with that person the rest of the day.

It is really not that big of a deal. Whoever has the best look gets the spot. If you know you do not have the best look, give up the spot. If you think you have a better spot, say something to the umpire. You should never have a big debate over a spot. Most of the time the only time a spot is going to be that critical is when it is close to a first down or near the goal line. You should not go crazy over this aspect of the game.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

As I said, on a play that takes a while to develop, I can completely understand that.

I don't, but I paid attention in geometry class in high school, and I understand angles.

I'm saying quick out pass to my side. Especially a flanker screen. First I key on the tackle on my side and see pass. Peripherally, I can see the quarterback getting ready to throw the ball to this side, so if there's not another receiver from my side heading downfield (for a double pass or something), my attention can shift to the ball and whether or not it's a backward pass.

Then let me re-phrase the original statement: The wing(s) may have a better angle on it than the referee, depending on the situation.

And, if it's one of those situations, shouldn't the WH at least consult with the wing(s)?

Usually the official who has the pass thrown to them has the direction of the pass. But there is a mechanic that allows the opposite wing to rule on this as well. Just talk about this in the pre-game and get on the same page. Just remember, anyone can call a pass incomplete if they know it is incomplete. This is not just the wing's call all the way.

Peace

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Hope this helps...

The 'spot' as JR said is the responsibility of both wing officials. Often one wing will have a better view than the other, and the 'other' will back off of it. Some local organizations ask the wings to mirror the spot; others ask only the covering official to show the U the correct spot. Be aware that higher level officiating uses a lot more cross-field techniques than lower level ball does. Especially on spots where the runner is driven back in the L's side zone (for example), the L will be trailing the play and may not have a precise view of the forward progress spot. However, the H across the field because of his shallower angle of view, will have a pretty accurate spot. Here's the technique we use: When the L is uncertain of the exact spot, he'll discretely look across the field as he's coming toward the spot to the H. If the H is standing still at a spot with his two feet together, that's the signal to the L that the H has the spot. Obviously, the same technique is used for both wings and in both sidezones.

Now...the jersey grab. Technically, the grab of the jersey is a hold. However, even at the point of attack, such a technique could be ignored if it doesn't result in a restriction of the defensive player. If the defender is content to be grabbed in this manner and just stays face-up with the blocker (NFL calls this a "dance"), there's no real restriction. However, should the defender attempt to pull away to pursue the runner and the restriction becomes obvious, flags should fly.

[wisref2]

You received a lot of good feedback in the earlier responses so I won't repeat anything. All I'll say is that is seems you have a pretty good handle on this thing they call officiating. One way I can tell is by the questions you are asking. You're only three years in, and it seems you're well on your way to learning this art. Keep reading stuff like this, Referee Magazine, etc. and you'll learn more about cross field spotting (where one wing helps the other on tough spots), using POST on fouls (if it's not at the Point of attack, Obvious or a Safety issue, it's a Talk-to), etc.

[parepat]

with respect to tha pass down the line, our rule is that if the throw is immediate the wing has the call. All other passes are the responsibility of the Ref.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by parepat

with respect to tha pass down the line, our rule is that if the throw is immediate the wing has the call. All other passes are the responsibility of the Ref.

REPLY: Same here. And it's the wing that the pass is coming to that has the call. We're instructed to punch back if it's backwards, but do nothing if it's forward.