Wing signals

[Schultj]

I have some questions relating to the wings after watching a varsity game. I'm relatively new, so I'd like to know their significance.

1. On a kickoff, the HL signaled one hand up, one to the side. This must be more than just a ready signal, right? I have also worked where if it is an onside the HL will signal to the rest of the crew with an open hand in the air.

2. On a scrimmage play, the HL signaled the down with both hands, sometimes with each arm to the side and sometimes with one arm in the air and just one to the side (he seemed to do the later only on first downs). When the C touched the ball he dropped his arms and then signaled the WR off the line. I believe that he is communicating the down with the chain crew, but does the arm in the air vs on the side have any significance?

3. The LJ didn't do any of these signals. Are there any that the LJ should do or repeat back on kickoffs or otherwise?

[Schultj]

I would also like to add that in the NFL the HL gives the dead ball signal before the snap, then drops the signal when the C grabs the ball and signals if the WR is on or off the line. Is this what should be done in HS?

[ramaris]

Originally posted by Schultj
I have some questions relating to the wings after watching a varsity game. I'm relatively new, so I'd like to know their significance.

1. On a kickoff, the HL signaled one hand up, one to the side. This must be more than just a ready signal, right? I have also worked where if it is an onside the HL will signal to the rest of the crew with an open hand in the air.

2. On a scrimmage play, the HL signaled the down with both hands, sometimes with each arm to the side and sometimes with one arm in the air and just one to the side (he seemed to do the later only on first downs). When the C touched the ball he dropped his arms and then signaled the WR off the line. I believe that he is communicating the down with the chain crew, but does the arm in the air vs on the side have any significance?

3. The LJ didn't do any of these signals. Are there any that the LJ should do or repeat back on kickoffs or otherwise?

It sounds to me that the HL in question is using very old mechanics. I seem to remember when I started circa 1986 being taught something like what you are describing. My suggestion for the wings and BJ is to signal to each other the down as soon as lined up. Our crew also uses a closed fist between these three officials to signal each other "I got 11 on D!". (R and U do the smae for O). There is no reason to hold the down number above the head until the snap that I can come up with. Signaling the WR off the line is imperative!! You might also see wings signaling unbalanced line (we use hand to cheek) or a few other things to each other. I also like my wings to tap the flags if they are going to throw them at the snap, it looks great to see both flags go at exactly the same time.


[Edited by ramaris on Aug 30th, 2003 at 03:24 AM]

[ramaris]

Originally posted by Schultj
I would also like to add that in the NFL the HL gives the dead ball signal before the snap, then drops the signal when the C grabs the ball and signals if the WR is on or off the line. Is this what should be done in HS?

There are alot of signals that you shouldn't see in HS that you see in NFL. My personal pet peeve are those officials that put their hands in the air after every play. Yes the NFL does it, but there it has a reason... I've been told that the NFL times everything for stat purposes. That is probally what is going on here with the HL. They are probally timing the amount of time that the ball is not "in play" or some such. All that said, this is not what should be done in HS. Maybe someone else can explain the whole NFL timing stuff better than I.



[Edited by ramaris on Aug 30th, 2003 at 03:24 AM]

[Theisey]

Originally posted by ramaris
...
There are alot of signals that you shouldn't see in HS that you see in NFL. My personal pet peeve are those officials that put their hands in the air after every play. Yes the NFL does it, but there it has a reason...[Edited by ramaris on Aug 30th, 2003 at 03:24 AM] [/B]

The 40 second play clock operator keys off that signal. Other wise, no need for any NF nor NCAA official to use it.

[Ed Hickland]

There are a lot of crew communication signals and they seem to vary from association or even crew to crew.

I remember first using the extended arm when I officiated in California. They also used an arm across the chest to indicate the man nearest to them is on the line. Of the 24 crews in my current assciation in NY, my crew is the only one using those signals because I like them.

Until the NFHS adopted the roughing the snapper and the crew signal being the rolling hands like a false start I used it like the NFL to signal the clock would stop on the next play. Wonderful signal to remind everyone after a punt or a 4th down to immediately stop the clock. In fact, I told the clock operator on the down following that signal he was on his own to immediately stop the clock.

[Forksref]

Our wings signal off the line, but no signal needed if on the line. As a backjudge, I like to read the off the line signal by a wing to help me determine which of the ends is eligible as a TE if there are two TE's. My depth perception can't always tell. (The TE that is 'covered up' is not eligible and I can be aware of that too.)

If there are not enough players on A's line, the wings will point at each other to help each other recognize that fact.

Also, in a short yardage situation where the wings move in to better observe the play and forward progress for the spot, they will signal with two fists moving together to 'pinch' in as a reminder of the situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Forksref
Our wings signal off the line, but no signal needed if on the line.

That's not necessarily true. While it isn't required, it is a good communication tool. Just because the wing isn't pointing back doesn't mean the end is on the line.

As Ed said, I think they're are a lot of variations from state to state, association to association and even, crew to crew.

[davidfv1]

The California Football Officials Association Puts out an excellant mechanics book for 3-4 &5 man crews. The book is prepared by John Pemberton, Instructional Chairman CFOA. It is published every 3 years and is a great resource to ensure that the same mechanics are use throughout the CFOA.

Some of the wing signals:

Point to the Offensive backfield to indicate the the widest player on your side is in the backfield.

Hold signal until reconized by other wing man who should point to you.

If player moves up, place the hand on opposite shoulder to indicate that he has moved back up.

If both are pointing in the backfield, count the backs.

[ump76]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

That's not necessarily true. While it isn't required, it is a good communication tool. Just because the wing isn't pointing back doesn't mean the end is on the line.

As Ed said, I think they're are a lot of variations from state to state, association to association and even, crew to crew.

In our association we state that if my arm is back he's off
and if you do not see an arm he is on. We make it a point to teach this.

[cmathews]

ump76, I think that bktballref's point is that that it is possible that he is neither on or off...for example his helmet is breaking the plane of the hips of his nearest teammate who is on the los, so he is not properly positioned to be a back...but his head is not breaking the line drawn through the centers waist, so he is not properly positioned to be a lineman....so he is neither on or off

[cdnRef]

If he's not on the line he's off. It's the side judge's call.

Becuase we all do canadian ball here as well, we use the canadian down indicator signals to signal across the field. I can't see 50 yards so the big signals help (just kidding). That way the other guy knows how many you have and you know how many he has. Really helps out if you have sun glaring in your eyes too.

Second down is like a touchdown signal except your fists are closed and at about shoulder height. That means you have two people on your side of center. Third down is like a delay of game signal with your arms away from your body and fists at about shoulder height. That means you have three. For four we use a fourth down signal (standard american fourth down)...more than four we just leave the field - it gets too freaky

[cmathews]

cdnref, yes you are correct he is either on or off the LOS, my point is he can be not on the line but still not in the backfield...there fore not eligible and in an illegal postition, as they have to be either on the line or in the backfield...

[Mike Simonds]

Just don't give the middle finger salute to your line mate...

One of our officials pulled this stunt a few years ago and one of the coaches thought it was directed at him... Not a pretty sight...


[Edited by Mike Simonds on Sep 5th, 2003 at 09:59 PM]

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by cmathews
ump76, I think that bktballref's point is that that it is possible that he is neither on or off...for example his helmet is breaking the plane of the hips of his nearest teammate who is on the los, so he is not properly positioned to be a back...but his head is not breaking the line drawn through the centers waist, so he is not properly positioned to be a lineman....so he is neither on or off

REPLY: But in such a case, that player's illegal position is the judgement/call of the near wing man. There's no real reason for him to communicate that to his partner across the field. At the snap, he should just throw his flag. Also, take it from experience...try not to make this call--especially if he's out wide and not close to the "nearest teammate legally on the line." Either declare him on the line or off. Don't split hairs on this one and ruin an otherwise good game. Let his coach know and take a pass on the flag.