You came all the way over here for that?

RonRef · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp

I don't fully agree. The coach knew what he was doing. Maybe the reply could have been a little different but the coach was warned before the flag was thrown. I don't like to get into all the woulda/shoulda/coulda's. I have seen usually mild-mannered officials react in ways that I would deem uncharacteristic at times, me included. Bit don't pin this on the official - the coach drew this penalty himself when he left the conference and confronted the official.

The wing officials should have said nothing, this is the difference between a good and great official. The reply was totally uncalled for, even the poster is second guessing himself on that point. If that is a warning I need to rethink how I warn coaches. I always thought saying, "coach that is enough," seems to be a bit more professional and gets the point across.

Rich · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 10:06am

I'm the referee on my crew and, based on the situation posted here, would prefer to give out any warnings like this myself.

As Ron mentioned, a brief "that's enough" should suffice. If it continues, then be a bit more stern and direct the coach to his team huddle.

My wings aren't expected to be mute -- they are quite demanding when it comes to sideline decorum and making sure the teams are in the right spots during timeouts. But with a coach in the middle of the field I would hope that any USC flag thrown would be mine after giving the appropriate warnings.

waltjp · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I'm the referee on my crew and, based on the situation posted here, would prefer to give out any warnings like this myself.

If all R's were as diligent as you this situation might have been prevented. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the R working the game in question caught it in time.

Rich · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp

If all R's were as diligent as you this situation might have been prevented. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the R working the game in question caught it in time.

I noticed that. It's disappointing. Being a referee is far more a mental challenge than physical one, and game management is job one. I would hope I'd catch the coach not heading to his team (inside the hashmarks, of course) and direct him there immediately.

Another thing -- I'd rather the coach be angry at ME than the guy standing on his sideline the entire game. I'm in the middle of the field and can ignore the coach for the most part. And it's easier for the wing to control the sidelines if he hasn't had a confrontation with the coach.

Ed Hickland · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 03:24pm

As an official you have to place yourself in the position of being on the other side, in other words think about your response as if you would like to be responded to.

I notice the home coach has the card with our names on it in hand and is approaching me from his huddle at the center of the field, yelling that the visitor's QB had thrown the ball OOB on the bootleg play, and I've got to make that call.

You already know the coach is hot. Maybe your referee or the other wing has failed you by containing the coach. So you throw gasonline on the now burning coach. What is the result. A raging fire!

There were two things you could do, 1) simply let the coach vent with the hope he either lets it all out and your partners help contain, or, 2) politely in a calming voice tell the coach what you saw and why you called what you did from your vantage -- he deserves that. He may not agree but it may earn you respect points rather than the disrespect when you told him to go back to his huddle. Yes, it happened five minutes ago but what harm in an explanation? He knows you are not going to change it.

There may be nothing you could have done or said that will change his mind. To question his judgement, albeit flawed, inflammed the incident and the flag only made it worst.

Did you cause the coach to quit coaching and to lose by such a margin?

Probably not, but it could be argued you did.

What the coach may have done and what so many coaches do is used the incident to try to gain control of you, that is, he baited you and you took the bait. The rest of the game he wants you to give him "his" call out of guilt for blowing up. It happens and some coaches are masters at it. In other words, he owns you.

Think it is worth remembering every call or no-call we make, we make with the solid judgement that based upon what we observed and the rules is correct. Don't let any coach or player for that matter bait you into making a call without

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 03:55pm

I have no problem with the original response. The coach came out for a fight. Nothing that would have been said by the officials would have been sufficient. If you played "dumb" and acted like you did not know what the coach was complain about, and then he would have insulted you further. We need to stop acting like we are supposed to take whatever abuse when these coaches are out of line. This is a varsity game. A varsity coach should know better. In my opinion "Roaming Umpire" did nothing wrong. It is not like he went after the coach. The coach came to the middle of the field and was yelling at the officials. The coach rolled the dice and he crapped out.

Peace

waltjp · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

The wing officials should have said nothing, this is the difference between a good and great official. The reply was totally uncalled for, even the poster is second guessing himself on that point. If that is a warning I need to rethink how I warn coaches. I always thought saying, "coach that is enough," seems to be a bit more professional and gets the point across.

Ron, you contradict yourself.

First you say that the official should have said nothing. Then you say he should say 'enough'. I agree with the latter.

RonRef · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp

Ron, you contradict yourself.

First you say that the official should have said nothing. Then you say he should say 'enough'. I agree with the latter.

I was refering to him address the coach first in a unprofessional manner, if he had enough from the coach give him a formal warning, "that is enough coach."

kraine27 · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 01:00pm

Roamin,

Did your R, U and BJ not have any additional information regarding the play in question? In other words, with the R following the play, he apparently didn't see the play any different than you or he would have stated. I would think that if any of your crew mates would have seen anything additional, they would have provided the information.

The Roamin' Umpire · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraine27

Roamin,

Did your R, U and BJ not have any additional information regarding the play in question? In other words, with the R following the play, he apparently didn't see the play any different than you or he would have stated. I would think that if any of your crew mates would have seen anything additional, they would have provided the information.

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

I understand that you thought the coach was a DOPE for coming over but you baited him with your answer and the unprofessional way you talked to him and then you stick him with 15 yards. Who is watching the teams huddle during the TO? Where is the help from your umpire/referee to keep the coach from coming all the way over to talk to you? You just should have let him make an A$$ out of himself and then stick him, your conduct was uncalled for. We need to stay calm when everything around us is going to crap.

Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

Texas Aggie · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 08:24pm

Though I would have worded it differently, I have no problem with the response either. There are times when you MUST respond even if some would say that's throwing gas on the fire. It isn't like the fire is going to go out by itself without a response. I might have said something like, "coach, first, it was not a pass but a fumble, and second, I need you back on your sideline immediately." I don't believe the original comment was a bait, and this sure isn't a bait.

In responding in a factual manner gets you in trouble, then that's fine.

Forksref · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 11, 2006, 10:20pm

"Coach, the timeout is almost over. You need to get back to the sideline. Coach, that's enough." I am not against using the "Stop sign" like I use in basketball.

RonRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 12, 2006, 05:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.

Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

Roamin
I totally agree that he should have been flagged, but you would have flagged him with or without taking the tone with him that you did. We all make mistakes every game we work, the key is to learn from them, move on, and get better next Friday! Have a great game this week.

RonRef · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 12, 2006, 05:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.

Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

This is also a great lesson to all of us that we need to be better dead ball officials. Even during timeouts we have to stay sharp and not let our guard down. A timeout is not a time to socialize with your fellow crewmates, we all have responsibilities during the TO! We can all work on this.

Deeps12 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 13, 2006, 04:02pm

I agree with Ron regarding this scenario, all the way up until this last post.. I don't agree that the coach had to be flagged at all. I think we all agree that roamin could have been more diplomatic with the way he spoke to the coach. But that coach has every right to vent in a frustrated manner about a call, even if said call was five minutes ago. Yes, at some point we get to the 'coach, that is enough' place, but roamin himself said he was surprised about what the coach was talking about, so it was not as if he had been belaboring his frustration.

As I see it, the coach coming onto the field is the major no-no. But somebody makes the point of why the HL isn't near the sideline covering his huddle. Even so, the situation could be avoided had roamin simply escorted the coach (or walked past him, thus forcing him to follow) to the sideline while saying something to the effect of 'if you wish to calmly discuss this, we need to take it to the sideline'...... It hardly warranted an automatic flag, hell, we aren't baseball umpires!!

Emotions take over with players and coaches. They blood, sweat, tear every day, not us. If we can use preventative measures to keep them out of trouble, we need to do just that. Insecurities and egos need to be set aside; if they were we wouldn't say things like 'he was asking for it'...... I hardly think he berated roamin to the point where he needed to 'stick' him as soon as he stepped on the field. There is a difference between being shown up by a coach and letting our ego think a coach is showing us up simply because he is angry about a call.

Just my humble take.