You came all the way over here for that?

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.



Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

Roamin
I totally agree that he should have been flagged, but you would have flagged him with or without taking the tone with him that you did. We all make mistakes every game we work, the key is to learn from them, move on, and get better next Friday! Have a great game this week.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.



Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

This is also a great lesson to all of us that we need to be better dead ball officials. Even during timeouts we have to stay sharp and not let our guard down. A timeout is not a time to socialize with your fellow crewmates, we all have responsibilities during the TO! We can all work on this.

[Deeps12]

I agree with Ron regarding this scenario, all the way up until this last post.. I don't agree that the coach had to be flagged at all. I think we all agree that roamin could have been more diplomatic with the way he spoke to the coach. But that coach has every right to vent in a frustrated manner about a call, even if said call was five minutes ago. Yes, at some point we get to the 'coach, that is enough' place, but roamin himself said he was surprised about what the coach was talking about, so it was not as if he had been belaboring his frustration.

As I see it, the coach coming onto the field is the major no-no. But somebody makes the point of why the HL isn't near the sideline covering his huddle. Even so, the situation could be avoided had roamin simply escorted the coach (or walked past him, thus forcing him to follow) to the sideline while saying something to the effect of 'if you wish to calmly discuss this, we need to take it to the sideline'...... It hardly warranted an automatic flag, hell, we aren't baseball umpires!!

Emotions take over with players and coaches. They blood, sweat, tear every day, not us. If we can use preventative measures to keep them out of trouble, we need to do just that. Insecurities and egos need to be set aside; if they were we wouldn't say things like 'he was asking for it'...... I hardly think he berated roamin to the point where he needed to 'stick' him as soon as he stepped on the field. There is a difference between being shown up by a coach and letting our ego think a coach is showing us up simply because he is angry about a call.

Just my humble take.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by Deeps12

As I see it, the coach coming onto the field is the major no-no. But somebody makes the point of why the HL isn't near the sideline covering his huddle. Even so, the situation could be avoided had roamin simply escorted the coach (or walked past him, thus forcing him to follow) to the sideline while saying something to the effect of 'if you wish to calmly discuss this, we need to take it to the sideline'...... It hardly warranted an automatic flag, hell, we aren't baseball umpires!!

FWIW, despite my handle (which has its origins in when I worked baseball), I was the HL, and I was near the sideline covering my huddle. While the response could have been calmer, and I could perhaps have walked him over to his huddle or the referee, I certainly wasn't going all the way across the field back to his sideline.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Deeps12

we aren't baseball umpires!!

Exactly. In baseball it's commonplace for a manager or coach to go out on the field and question a call or express his displeasure. It's not tolerated in football. If the coach comes out on the field he gets very little latitude before he's drawing a flag for USC.

[fattuna2]

Nobody out there is stupid...presumably. We're all adults essentially donating our time and the coaches know it. If he wanted to discuss the call or *****, or cry he should have called a time out and addressed the referee. He'd have had 60 or so seconds to say what he wanted. I take my officiating as seriously as my job. I refuse to be talked down to by people who are no more important (In the grand scheme of life) than me. I wish I was better with my temper, but once again, the coach should be a professional also.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I agree with waltjp...when a coach is participating in a charged TO, he has the right to come onto the field between the hashes to speak with his players. But only for that purpose. He does not have the right to come all the way across the field to discuss anything with you. In hindsight, I'm sure you could have handled this differently. Heck, that's why you posted the question in the first place--to get others' opinions. But...that coach is skating on thin ice when he comes past his huddle, across the field to speak with an official.

[Deeps12]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Exactly. In baseball it's commonplace for a manager or coach to go out on the field and question a call or express his displeasure. It's not tolerated in football. If the coach comes out on the field he gets very little latitude before he's drawing a flag for USC.

lol!! in baseball a coach or player gets ejected for looking at the umpire wrongly. AND THEN, they are willing to stand toe-to-toe and scream at the coach!! as football officials, we pride ourselves in having the people skills and patience to deal with coaches and situations without having to exert our authority by flagging coaches!! we have the ability to diffuse situations. roamin, i did not realize you were on the OTHER side of the field from the coach's sideline. of course it is NOT tolerable for him to come all the way across the field. but surely, the U or R or BJ would have stopped him prior to him coming all the way across! even so, OF COURSE you could come across the field to discuss it with him!!! are you kidding?!! why not? charged timeout, the coach deserves an explanation and has yet to receive one because you are on the other side of the field. courtesy says you can jog over, give your take, politely listen to his take, and KEEP HIM OUT OF TROUBLE by turning and leaving!! contrary to what walt is saying, the coach should be given A LOT of latitude before drawing a flag. it is pure ego which causes us to become confrontational and 'stick' a coach. 'stick a coach'??!!! what an awful word, and contrary to the quality of work we strive to present as FOOTBALL officials.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Deeps12

lol!! in baseball a coach or player gets ejected for looking at the umpire wrongly. AND THEN, they are willing to stand toe-to-toe and scream at the coach!!

Deeps, with all due respect, you have no idea of what you're talking about. Maybe you've been watching too many old-time baseball films. Baseball umpires, in general, are not having toe-to-toe arguements with managers and coaches - at least not on the amature level. In my opinion baseball umpires are far more adept at dealing with coaches than football officials.

For the rest of your post - keep the flag in your pocket if you're willing to let a coach berate you on the field - and if you do don't be surprised if you start to hear it from the other sideline too.

[JRutledge]

I am sorry, football officials never "owe" a coach an explanation. It is a courtesy for us to give an explanation. When we do give an explanation, the coach better behave in a manner that is sportsmanlike or calm. When a coach comes yelling and screaming, all bets are off. I do think we should be able to be approachable, but that means by being treated with some respect. When that respect by the coaches are not given, then we have every right to throw flags.

I am also a baseball umpire and I cannot think of one time where I was face to face with a coach. What you see in the pros almost never applies to amateur sports.

Peace

[Deeps12]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Deeps, with all due respect, you have no idea of what you're talking about. Maybe you've been watching too many old-time baseball films. Baseball umpires, in general, are not having toe-to-toe arguements with managers and coaches - at least not on the amature level. In my opinion baseball umpires are far more adept at dealing with coaches than football officials.

For the rest of your post - keep the flag in your pocket if you're willing to let a coach berate you on the field - and if you do don't be surprised if you start to hear it from the other sideline too.

While I will ignore the offense I take to some of your statement, I respect your opinion. Yet, you focused on only one part of my statement. You must work baseball, and I apologize if I was either disrespectful of that sports' officiating philosophies, or off base. Yet, you failed to absorb the rest of my statement. It is one thing to be constantly berated by a coach after warning and warning have been given. You dramatize this situation, however. In THIS situation, the coach has yet to berate anybody (roamin is 'surprised' and doesn't know what the coach is talking about).... So, out of courtesy, we do OWE the coach our take, contrary to rutledge's statement. It is his game, rutledge. Drop the ego, give him his just deserve. Courtesy and common sense say he deserves to know what we saw. Should he have relayed the request through the LJ, of course. But can we keep him out of trouble by providing him a response? Of course. Coaches want to vent, and they have EVERY right to do that. Once they've done that..... turn and walk away...... say 'i've heard enough, coach'...... Both suffice as proper warning, which has not been given in this case. A coach on the field during play, inexcusable. Charged timeouts are different and can be handled without the use of force (15).....

By the way....... Walt...... I promise I do know what I am talking about, and take offense to your assertion otherwise. I will respect how your level and conference deal with coaches, and will agree to disagree...... But will safely assert that being flag-happy toward coaches is certainly not something that the 'next' level wants to see.

[Deeps12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am sorry, football officials never "owe" a coach an explanation. It is a courtesy for us to give an explanation. When we do give an explanation, the coach better behave in a manner that is sportsmanlike or calm. When a coach comes yelling and screaming, all bets are off. I do think we should be able to be approachable, but that means by being treated with some respect. When that respect by the coaches are not given, then we have every right to throw flags.

I am also a baseball umpire and I cannot think of one time where I was face to face with a coach. What you see in the pros almost never applies to amateur sports.

Peace

This is well said. Of course we are on the same page with regard to this rutledge, aside from a few points I made above. And of course it is all situational; if a coach is uncontrollable or inconsolable, sometimes we have no choice...... I simply thing those times are very, very rare.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Deeps12

While I will ignore the offense I take to some of your statement, I respect your opinion. Yet, you focused on only one part of my statement. You must work baseball, and I apologize if I was either disrespectful of that sports' officiating philosophies, or off base. Yet, you failed to absorb the rest of my statement. It is one thing to be constantly berated by a coach after warning and warning have been given. You dramatize this situation, however. In THIS situation, the coach has yet to berate anybody (roamin is 'surprised' and doesn't know what the coach is talking about).... So, out of courtesy, we do OWE the coach our take, contrary to rutledge's statement. It is his game, rutledge. Drop the ego, give him his just deserve. Courtesy and common sense say he deserves to know what we saw. Should he have relayed the request through the LJ, of course. But can we keep him out of trouble by providing him a response? Of course. Coaches want to vent, and they have EVERY right to do that. Once they've done that..... turn and walk away...... say 'i've heard enough, coach'...... Both suffice as proper warning, which has not been given in this case. A coach on the field during play, inexcusable. Charged timeouts are different and can be handled without the use of force (15).....

By the way....... Walt...... I promise I do know what I am talking about, and take offense to your assertion otherwise. I will respect how your level and conference deal with coaches, and will agree to disagree...... But will safely assert that being flag-happy toward coaches is certainly not something that the 'next' level wants to see.

Some of us don't care about the next level and how they handle things. We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL.

It's my games as much as it's the coach's game, BTW. I'm not out there merely as his paid hired help.

[Deeps12]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Some of us don't care about the next level and how they handle things. We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL.

It's my games as much as it's the coach's game, BTW. I'm not out there merely as his paid hired help.

That's my point, Rich! All levels should handle this situation the same! Flag-happy toward coaches isn't right for ANY level!

And it isn't YOUR game!!! It's those kids' who practice every day, those coaches who bring it home to their families! No, you aren't their hired help, but it isn't your field or your game. And it is just as much your responsibility is to keep those coaches and kids out of trouble IF at all possible. When you see two kids pushing after the play, and recogize the potential for a UNR late hit or a punch, do you just sit back and watch and let them hang themself? No, you rush in, get in the middle of them, provide a visual or physical deterrence. Namely, you become a good preventative dead ball official. YOU KEEP THEM OUT OF TROUBLE. I'm not gonig to let them walk all over me, granted; but UNS fouls should be avoided when possible. In Roamin's case, I feel it possible.

Though many of these responses dissapoint me, everybody is entitled to their opinions. I just hope we all can have the ability to check our egos at the door when stepping on the field.

As for me, I've got a freshman game to work in about an hour. I'll pretty much guarantee you a coach won't be flagged, nor will one be flagged at my varsity game Friday night, nor will one be flagged at the game (no less, no more important) that I will work this weekend. So spare me the 'We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL' commentary; as my RESPECTFUL comments weren't meant to big-time anybody and were perfectly suitable to ANY level.

Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with my commentary, or are we all adopting a confrontational attitude toward those 'enemy' coaches?!!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Deeps12

That's my point, Rich! All levels should handle this situation the same! Flag-happy toward coaches isn't right for ANY level!

And it isn't YOUR game!!! It's those kids' who practice every day, those coaches who bring it home to their families! No, you aren't their hired help, but it isn't your field or your game. And it is just as much your responsibility is to keep those coaches and kids out of trouble IF at all possible. When you see two kids pushing after the play, and recogize the potential for a UNR late hit or a punch, do you just sit back and watch and let them hang themself? No, you rush in, get in the middle of them, provide a visual or physical deterrence. Namely, you become a good preventative dead ball official. YOU KEEP THEM OUT OF TROUBLE. I'm not gonig to let them walk all over me, granted; but UNS fouls should be avoided when possible. In Roamin's case, I feel it possible.

Though many of these responses dissapoint me, everybody is entitled to their opinions. I just hope we all can have the ability to check our egos at the door when stepping on the field.

As for me, I've got a freshman game to work in about an hour. I'll pretty much guarantee you a coach won't be flagged, nor will one be flagged at my varsity game Friday night, nor will one be flagged at the game (no less, no more important) that I will work this weekend. So spare me the 'We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL' commentary; as my RESPECTFUL comments weren't meant to big-time anybody and were perfectly suitable to ANY level.

Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with my commentary, or are we all adopting a confrontational attitude toward those 'enemy' coaches?!!

It's my field and my game just as much as theirs. We'll just disagree on this one. I prepare and bring things home and work hard, just like they do. We're the third team out there. Pride and ego are two different things.

But I guess you'll be just like those coaches on TV. With cotton in your ears ignoring everything they say, no matter how unsportsmanlike.

It's not confrontational to punish unsportsmanlike conduct. Do you honestly think that we don't talk to coaches -- that we don't try to keep them from crossing the line? Please. I flagged a coach last year in a varsity game after we ejected a player of his for spearing. I gave him every chance to attend to his injured player and stop screaming at me near the hashmarks on his way to the player. I even tried to walk away from him. Eventually, the flag's gotta come out, though. It's got nothing to do with ego. I'm in charge, not him.

When they do cross the line, well, then we're passing on our responsibility if we don't penalize.

And our responsibility is quite different in a freshman game than in a D-I college game. If you don't see or understand that, then I certainly won't be able to change your mind.