Basic Spot

[dumbref]

A’s ball 3rd and 5 from the 50. A25 takes a toss sweep and advances to B’s 45 YL (beyond the LOS). During the run, A15 holds at B’ 40 YL. Trapped, A25 treats behind the neutral zone to his own 45 where he is hit and fumbles. A10 picks up the loose ball and runs for a TD.

When B accepts the penalty, from where is it marked?

[Jim D]

The play was a running play and A fouled behind the basic spot (the end of the run is the goal line) so go back to B's 45 (spot of the foul) and go back 10 yards to A's 45 and repeat 3rd down.

If B declines, TD for A.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Anyone else have a thought on this one??

[The Roamin' Umpire]

The end of the related run was A's 45, where the fumble occurred. Since the foul is in advance of that spot, we'll enforce from the end of the run. A 3/20 @ A35. And smack that running back for retreating 10 yards.

[Theisey]

I happen to agree with RoaminU on this one. Seems pretty harse, but that's how I see it too.

BTW, the spot of the foul was at the B-40 not the B-45

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I don't agree with the Ump.

And I just abused the edit button.

[rdfox]

The fumble behind the line makes that part of the play a loose ball play. The basic spot is therefore the original line of scrimmage. Since A's penalty was prior to the fumble being recovered and not behind the basic spot, you mark off the 10 yard penalty from the 50.

[dumbref]

I don't think Bob M will agree with anyone yet.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by rdfox

The fumble behind the line makes that part of the play a loose ball play. The basic spot is therefore the original line of scrimmage. Since A's penalty was prior to the fumble being recovered and not behind the basic spot, you mark off the 10 yard penalty from the 50.

I think Bob M will agree with you. We must have been posting at the same time. The fumble behind the neutral zone created a loose ball play that included A25's run beyond the neutral zone. So the foul occurred during a loose ball play.

[DJ_NV]

NF:

There are two types of plays (for penalty enforcement purposes) during this down.
The first is a Loose Ball play, which begins with the snap and ends with the recovery of the fumble by A10. See 10-3-1-c(Note). A fumble [in this case] made by A in or behind the NZ before a COP constitutes a Loose Ball play, and this includes all of the run(s) preceding the fumble.
The second is a Running play, which begins with the recovery by A10 and ends when the down is over (TD). See 10-3-2. The action during this time period does not match any definitions outlined in 10-3-1 so it is a Running play by default.
The hold occurred prior to the recovery by A10 so it occurred during a Loose Ball play. The Basic Spot for a foul during Loose Ball play is the Previous Spot. See 10-4-2-b. According to the all-but-one principle, all fouls are penalized from the BS, except for a foul by the offense behind the BS.
In this case, it is a foul by the offense however the spot of the foul is not behind the BS, which is the PS.
Therefore, penalize A 10 yards from the PS, 3/15 from the A-40. Clock on the snap.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by dumbref

I think Bob M will agree with you. We must have been posting at the same time. The fumble behind the neutral zone created a loose ball play that included A25's run beyond the neutral zone. So the foul occurred during a loose ball play.

REPLY: Exactly !!!

[kdf5]

Loose ball play. It doesn't matter where the runner's been, only where the fumble occurred. It occurred behind the LOS, so it's loose ball play, enforce from the previous spot.

[Jim D]

Yep. My mistake. There are two basic spots on this play, one for fouls during the first run and during the time the ball is loose (the spot of the fumble) and a second basic spot for fouls during the second run (the goal line). I used the wrong spot. It is a running play but since the foul was during the first run, we'd use the spot of the fumble as the basic spot.

[Jim D]

Just ignore me on this topic. I keep posting answers without carefully reading the play. It's a fumble behind the LOS which is a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Let's be crazy and take this one a step further. Now consider:

A’s ball 3rd and 5 from the 50. A25 takes a toss sweep and advances to B’s 45 YL (beyond the LOS) where he fumbles and A22 recovers. During A25's run, A15 holds at B’ 40 YL. Trapped, A22 retreats behind the neutral zone to his own 45 where he is hit and fumbles. A10 picks up the loose ball and runs for a TD.

Does this change the enforcement???