live ball deadball

[k Lo]

2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play.
Live ball foul? Or live ball treated as a deadball? Where would the ball be spotted?

K

[BktBallRef]

If the block occurs before the play is dead, it's a live ball foul, penalized from the 30.

If after the play, it's dead ball, penalized from the end of the run.

[Theisey]

The official tossing the flag will need to explain to the the Referee that the foul occurred before the whistle or after the whistle.
That's about all you can do to determine if the call will be live ball foul vs. dead ball foul.
Cheap shots on a player obviously out of the play need to be flagged.

[BoomerSooner]

Out of the play and not playing are 2 different concepts that need to be clarified. You mentioned nothing about the block being illegal or malacious so those are not considerations. If the player is actively pursuing the play then I've got no problem with this (out of the play). If he is standing there watching the play finish then flag away and penalize as discussed (not playing).

My reasoning behind not penalizing if both players are continuing action is that there are so many conclusions that this play could have come to, most notable being a fumble. I'm not supporting cheap shots, but playing to the whistle is something players are coached to do, and think most officials make mention of playing to the whistle during the captain's meeting.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

Out of the play and not playing are 2 different concepts that need to be clarified. You mentioned nothing about the block being illegal or malacious so those are not considerations. If the player is actively pursuing the play then I've got no problem with this (out of the play). If he is standing there watching the play finish then flag away and penalize as discussed (not playing).

My reasoning behind not penalizing if both players are continuing action is that there are so many conclusions that this play could have come to, most notable being a fumble. I'm not supporting cheap shots, but playing to the whistle is something players are coached to do, and think most officials make mention of playing to the whistle during the captain's meeting.

His question wasn't about flagging or not flagging the contact.

His question was with regard to what type of foul it would be.

Players should never be told to keep playing until the whistle is blown, not by coaches and especially not by officials. If you're using that in your pre-game conference, you should eliminate it. An official's whistle seldom kills the ball. It is already dead.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by k Lo

2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play.
Live ball foul? Or live ball treated as a deadball? Where would the ball be spotted?

K

What penalty? Blocking is not illegal. Blocking a player that is "clearly out of the play" is not illegal. What do you really have here?

The other posts answer your question about dead vs live - if the ball is live, the penalty (if this is a penalty) is a live ball foul.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Cheap shots on a player obviously out of the play need to be flagged.

I agree. But blocking is not necessarily a cheap shot. BIB is. Clipping is. BBW can be. USC is. But just a block is not a penalty, even if the block is on a player "obviously out of the play".

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

playing to the whistle is something players are coached to do, and think most officials make mention of playing to the whistle during the captain's meeting.

Yuck. Please don't do this. Please don't encourage this. And SURELY don't say this at your captain's meeting. If you have to say SOMETHING, phrase it like "Protect yourselves until you hear a whistle".

The play kills the play. The whistle is merely the announcement that the play is over, and is sometimes not even necessary. A crew I work with will sometimes go several plays in a row without a whistle at all.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What penalty? Blocking is not illegal. Blocking a player that is "clearly out of the play" is not illegal. What do you really have here?

It's been my assumption that when the poster doesn't specify or is using the general section he might be asking about NFHS rules. There are NF rules under the Personal Foul rule subsection

• "make any other contact with an opponent which is unnecessary and which incites roughness"

as well as

• "charge into a throw an opponent after he is obviously out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead in or out of bounds".

Being 20 yards behind a play which is ending and then knocked on your butt fits this foul. The team-B player could have been just walking up to what would be the succeeding spot when this unnecessary block occurs.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Theisey

It's been my assumption that when the poster doesn't specify or is using the general section he might be asking about NFHS rules. There are NF rules under the Personal Foul rule subsection

• "make any other contact with an opponent which is unnecessary and which incites roughness"

as well as

• "charge into a throw an opponent after he is obviously out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead in or out of bounds".

Being 20 yards behind a play which is ending and then knocked on your butt fits this foul. The team-B player could have been just walking up to what would be the succeeding spot when this unnecessary block occurs.

I referee NCAA rules, and confess to not be a FED expert (although I do try to learn all I can - almost exclusively from here). But doesn't FED have a rule that says all Personal Fouls are enforced as DBF? Or is that just USC?

Also, would you differentiate between a players that was "obviously out of the play" and no longer participating, and one who is running toward the play?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I referee NCAA rules, and confess to not be a FED expert (although I do try to learn all I can - almost exclusively from here). But doesn't FED have a rule that says all Personal Fouls are enforced as DBF? Or is that just USC?

Also, would you differentiate between a players that was "obviously out of the play" and no longer participating, and one who is running toward the play?

REPLY: PF and USC in Fed is handled pretty much the same as in NCAA. There are both live ball and dead ball personal fouls. And they're treated accordingly. All USCs--regardless of whether they're committed during a down or not--are treated as dead ball fouls with succeeding spot enforcement.

[mcrowder]

Gotcha.

I still don't think, in the OP, that the action described was illegal. But I'm going off his use of the word "Blocking". To me, if this block was not either in the back, exceedingly malicious, or below the waist, I'm having trouble seeing what one might call a personal foul. And if it was in the back or below the waist, we have different penalties than PF for this (not to mention that the OP's statement that the player was out of the play would no longer be a relevant part of the equation).

Too often I've seen a player who is supposedly "out of the play" suddenly become "in the play" again due to unforeseen circumstances, and since this DOES happen, we can't be too strict on blocking players supposedly "out of the play".

[BktBallRef]

mcrowder, perhaps you need to read the play again.

"2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play. "

The runner is about to be tackled and a A21 makes a block on a kid that's 20 yards away and knocks him on his a$$. I see no reason for this block/play/hit/contact whatsoever. I'd flag it as well.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

mcrowder, perhaps you need to read the play again.

"2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play. "

The runner is about to be tackled and a A21 makes a block on a kid that's 20 yards away and knocks him on his a$$. I see no reason for this block/play/hit/contact whatsoever. I'd flag it as well.

I did read the play. And your explanation. And I see no reason for the foul unless there was something else to it other than a block. The ball is live. You don't know (and neither does the kid making the block, nor the kid getting blocked), at the time of the block, that the ball carrier is going to hold on to the ball when he gets tackled. Heck, you don't even know for sure that he's GOING to get tackled - he could easily break out, reverse field, whatever, and this player who was blocked COULD become involved.

Would you flag an end on the right side of a play blocking the CB and "knocking him on his a$$" if the play was sweeping left, and the ball happened to be 20 yards away from this block? Of course not ... so why call it in the OP?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I did read the play. And your explanation. And I see no reason for the foul unless there was something else to it other than a block. The ball is live. You don't know (and neither does the kid making the block, nor the kid getting blocked), at the time of the block, that the ball carrier is going to hold on to the ball when he gets tackled. Heck, you don't even know for sure that he's GOING to get tackled - he could easily break out, reverse field, whatever, and this player who was blocked COULD become involved.

Would you flag an end on the right side of a play blocking the CB and "knocking him on his a$$" if the play was sweeping left, and the ball happened to be 20 yards away from this block? Of course not ... so why call it in the OP?

This is truly judgement. If the official believes the player being legally blocked is truly out of the play, it is a foul.

You often see this on a long run when one of the defensive linemen is lumbering toward the play and some "enterprising" player sees his opportunity to "clean his clock" by turning around giving that smashing block. It is illegal!

However, my suggestion is to use preventative officiating by verbaly letting the players know you are there with something like "Keep it clean, don't hit anybody" when you are trailing the play.

It is a stupid penalty but it can also be dangerous if the player being blocked has a reasonable expectation of not being hit by his location well out of the play.