live ball deadball

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by k Lo

2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play.
Live ball foul? Or live ball treated as a deadball? Where would the ball be spotted?

K

What penalty? Blocking is not illegal. Blocking a player that is "clearly out of the play" is not illegal. What do you really have here?

The other posts answer your question about dead vs live - if the ball is live, the penalty (if this is a penalty) is a live ball foul.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What penalty? Blocking is not illegal. Blocking a player that is "clearly out of the play" is not illegal. What do you really have here?

It's been my assumption that when the poster doesn't specify or is using the general section he might be asking about NFHS rules. There are NF rules under the Personal Foul rule subsection

• "make any other contact with an opponent which is unnecessary and which incites roughness"

as well as

• "charge into a throw an opponent after he is obviously out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead in or out of bounds".

Being 20 yards behind a play which is ending and then knocked on your butt fits this foul. The team-B player could have been just walking up to what would be the succeeding spot when this unnecessary block occurs.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Theisey

It's been my assumption that when the poster doesn't specify or is using the general section he might be asking about NFHS rules. There are NF rules under the Personal Foul rule subsection

• "make any other contact with an opponent which is unnecessary and which incites roughness"

as well as

• "charge into a throw an opponent after he is obviously out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead in or out of bounds".

Being 20 yards behind a play which is ending and then knocked on your butt fits this foul. The team-B player could have been just walking up to what would be the succeeding spot when this unnecessary block occurs.

I referee NCAA rules, and confess to not be a FED expert (although I do try to learn all I can - almost exclusively from here). But doesn't FED have a rule that says all Personal Fouls are enforced as DBF? Or is that just USC?

Also, would you differentiate between a players that was "obviously out of the play" and no longer participating, and one who is running toward the play?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I referee NCAA rules, and confess to not be a FED expert (although I do try to learn all I can - almost exclusively from here). But doesn't FED have a rule that says all Personal Fouls are enforced as DBF? Or is that just USC?

Also, would you differentiate between a players that was "obviously out of the play" and no longer participating, and one who is running toward the play?

REPLY: PF and USC in Fed is handled pretty much the same as in NCAA. There are both live ball and dead ball personal fouls. And they're treated accordingly. All USCs--regardless of whether they're committed during a down or not--are treated as dead ball fouls with succeeding spot enforcement.

[mcrowder]

Gotcha.

I still don't think, in the OP, that the action described was illegal. But I'm going off his use of the word "Blocking". To me, if this block was not either in the back, exceedingly malicious, or below the waist, I'm having trouble seeing what one might call a personal foul. And if it was in the back or below the waist, we have different penalties than PF for this (not to mention that the OP's statement that the player was out of the play would no longer be a relevant part of the equation).

Too often I've seen a player who is supposedly "out of the play" suddenly become "in the play" again due to unforeseen circumstances, and since this DOES happen, we can't be too strict on blocking players supposedly "out of the play".

[BktBallRef]

mcrowder, perhaps you need to read the play again.

"2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play. "

The runner is about to be tackled and a A21 makes a block on a kid that's 20 yards away and knocks him on his a$$. I see no reason for this block/play/hit/contact whatsoever. I'd flag it as well.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

mcrowder, perhaps you need to read the play again.

"2nd and 3, A33 sprints down the left side of the field from the 50 towards his goal line and just as he getting tackled at the 10, A21 blocks B76 at the 30 and knocks him on his butt who was clearly out of the play. "

The runner is about to be tackled and a A21 makes a block on a kid that's 20 yards away and knocks him on his a$$. I see no reason for this block/play/hit/contact whatsoever. I'd flag it as well.

I did read the play. And your explanation. And I see no reason for the foul unless there was something else to it other than a block. The ball is live. You don't know (and neither does the kid making the block, nor the kid getting blocked), at the time of the block, that the ball carrier is going to hold on to the ball when he gets tackled. Heck, you don't even know for sure that he's GOING to get tackled - he could easily break out, reverse field, whatever, and this player who was blocked COULD become involved.

Would you flag an end on the right side of a play blocking the CB and "knocking him on his a$$" if the play was sweeping left, and the ball happened to be 20 yards away from this block? Of course not ... so why call it in the OP?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Gotcha.

I still don't think, in the OP, that the action described was illegal. But I'm going off his use of the word "Blocking". To me, if this block was not either in the back, exceedingly malicious, or below the waist, I'm having trouble seeing what one might call a personal foul. And if it was in the back or below the waist, we have different penalties than PF for this (not to mention that the OP's statement that the player was out of the play would no longer be a relevant part of the equation).

Too often I've seen a player who is supposedly "out of the play" suddenly become "in the play" again due to unforeseen circumstances, and since this DOES happen, we can't be too strict on blocking players supposedly "out of the play".

You're correct. You're not an NFHS expert. If you were, you'd be familiar with the POE's over the last few years. You'd be familiar with what HS officials are told at state and local clinics. This play is illegal and the Fed and the States want it called.

Stick with NCAA.

[BoomerSooner]

Just to comment on the "play to the whistle" point that was brought up. I made the mistake saying most officials. This was a generalization that I've made from my experiences outside my own crew. I've worked with crews that have acutally said "play until the whistle", but in my normal crew's captain's meeting we tell them to "watch for the play being dead i.e. player obviously down by contact or OOB and incomplete passes, but if you are unsure to be aware of ongoing play until the whistle." Regardless of what we say though, alot of coaches coach play to the whistle which I agree can be stupid and dangerous.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You're correct. You're not an NFHS expert. If you were, you'd be familiar with the POE's over the last few years. You'd be familiar with what HS officials are told at state and local clinics. This play is illegal and the Fed and the States want it called.

Stick with NCAA.

Will do, BASKETBALL ref. I'll stop trying to clarify my understanding of your rules. Wouldn't want to know more or understand anything better, now, would I?

Now, on a more civil note ... can you post for me the POE's you're talking about - I have read the ones that get posted here, and don't recall this one ... but maybe it just hasn't been posted before. Assuming said POE exists, I'm wondering what the reasoning is behind making assumptions that certain players on the field who are a certain undefined distance from the play would never end up having an effect on the play, and thus are unblockable.