Elementary Timing Question

[ljudge]

This is kind of a timing-101 question but I'm going to ask any way. Having a brain malfunction this morning. There are two case questions that seem to conflict.

3.4.2D: K11 puts the ball from 4th and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the Foul. Ruling: After enforcement, the clock starts on the RFP.

Rule 3-4-2b3 (Action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped)

3.4.3F: K11 punts on 4th and 10. R1 catches the kick after giving a legal fair catch signal. Prior to the snap, K2 was illegally in motion. R accepts the foul for illegal motion. Ruling: After enforcement, clock starts on the snap

Rule 3-4-3c (Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick).

Comment and question: In both situations R would have been awarded a new series but they were not because of a penalty. So because of this I'm thinking RFP in both. Additionally, in both situations the action did cause the clock to be stopped which makes me think snap in both. Can someone help me get my head out my butt and get this straight?

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I think the best way to remember is that if you move the chains and the previous play had a legal kick then you're always going to start on the snap- no matter what team got the first down.

Otherwise go back to the action which caused the down to end- and did it also cause the clock to be stopped.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by ljudge

This is kind of a timing-101 question but I'm going to ask any way. Having a brain malfunction this morning. There are two case questions that seem to conflict.

Actually, these are trickier than they appear at first glance. The key question is: "Why did we stop the clock?"

3.4.2D: K11 puts the ball from 4th and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the Foul. Ruling: After enforcement, the clock starts on the RFP.

Rule 3-4-2b3 (Action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped)

I dislike their citation here. What we really want to look at is 3-4-2a - the clock will start on the RFP when an officials' time-out is taken, unless B is awarded a new series. The reason we stopped the clock (besides the foul) is the change of possession, which falls under an officials' time-out under 3-5-7c. Therefore, we're starting on the ready.

3.4.3F: K11 punts on 4th and 10. R1 catches the kick after giving a legal fair catch signal. Prior to the snap, K2 was illegally in motion. R accepts the foul for illegal motion. Ruling: After enforcement, clock starts on the snap

Rule 3-4-3c (Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick).

Again, their citation here sucks. This time 3-4-2b3 is appropriate, since the clock specifically stops after a fair catch, per 3-4-4h. It's not just for an officials' time-out. So we'll go on the snap.

Comment and question: In both situations R would have been awarded a new series but they were not because of a penalty. So because of this I'm thinking RFP in both. Additionally, in both situations the action did cause the clock to be stopped which makes me think snap in both. Can someone help me get my head out my butt and get this straight?

I believe it was someone on this board (I want to say maybe AndrewMcCarthy or mcrowder) who finally got me to see this the way that jibes with the casebook. Forget about "would have been awarded a new series." You only start the clock on the snap (by 3-4-3 b&c anyway) when you actually award a new series. No new series is awarded in either case here, so 3-4-3 b&c don't apply, and we have to look elsewhere for our clock management ruling.