Timing Question

[ljudge]

I saw this on another board.

4th and 10, K punts to R, R roughs kicker, penalty accepted for 15 yds and auto 1st, clock starts ready or snap?

The response from one Zebtu (who we all know is knowledgable on these forums) was SNAP...and I was thinking the same thing. He pasted in the rule:

3-4-3 . . The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

But since Zeb posted the rule I'm thinking about a little more and thinking both he and I would be incorrect in indicating SNAP.

In analyzing this the clock was stopped because of a foul, not because either team has been awarded a new series. I'm now thinking we were both wrong and it should be RFP.

Agree or disagree? Why or why not?

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by ljudge
I saw this on another board.

4th and 10, K punts to R, R roughs kicker, penalty accepted for 15 yds and auto 1st, clock starts ready or snap?

The response from one Zebtu (who we all know is knowledgable on these forums) was SNAP...and I was thinking the same thing. He pasted in the rule:

3-4-3 . . The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

But since Zeb posted the rule I'm thinking about a little more and thinking both he and I would be incorrect in indicating SNAP.

In analyzing this the clock was stopped because of a foul, not because either team has been awarded a new series. I'm now thinking we were both wrong and it should be RFP.

Agree or disagree? Why or why not?

It could be either snap or RFP, it all depends on what killed the action during the play with a foul that is accepted. If the ball goes out of bounds or becomes dead in an endzone, then the replayed down starts on the snap. If the ball became dead inbounds, then it should start on the ready for play. The legal kick aspect of the rules does not apply since we are replaying the down that K executed a legal kick during, not playing after that down.

P.S. I posted on that board too and you didn't even mention me

[ljudge]

OK, additional parameters. Ball becomes dead in the field of play. At first I had snap but after thinking this through I have RFP as well.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Just so we're clear, let me fill in the most likely scenarios:

(a) Ball is cleanly caught by R, returned a short distance, at which point the runner is tackled.

OR

(b) Punt lands, rolls, and is downed by K (untouched by R).

RULING: Start the clock on the snap. The action which caused the down to end stopped the clock. Additionally, there was a legal kick, and K is awarded a new series.

[BulldogMcC]

But you stop the clock to enforce a penalty. If there had not been a penalty you would stop the clock to award a new series, but you do not award a new series until you have considered all acts that occurred during the down.

[Theisey]

NF could do two things to help us poor ole NF officials out.

1) define just what a "new" series really means
and
2) change the dang rule to match the NCAA rule where the result is clear cut on every legal kick.

What is a new series? About the only place I've seen something written about a new series or a series ending is in the OT section.

You are right about dealing with the penalty first, however after a legal kick team-A was awared a new series as a result of the RTK foul. Start the clock on the Snap.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by Theisey
NF could do two things to help us poor ole NF officials out.

1) define just what a "new" series really means
and
2) change the dang rule to match the NCAA rule where the result is clear cut on every legal kick.

What is a new series? About the only place I've seen something written about a new series or a series ending is in the OT section.

You are right about dealing with the penalty first, however after a legal kick team-A was awared a new series as a result of the RTK foul. Start the clock on the Snap.

Series 5-1 does a pretty good job of detailing it for me.

I still think the play after enforcing a penalty is not a down after a legal kick but the replay of that down.

[Theisey]

We're not replaying the down.
The penalty provides for a automatic 1st down. We gave team-A a new series following a legal kick play.


Right on with rule-5. My bad. Rule 5 is bascially an extension of the defintions rule 2.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I believe you start the clock on the snap because as Zebtu said you're awarding either team a new series following a legal kick. There's no restrictions in the rule on why you're awarding the new series. And I also agree that Rule 5 does a pretty fair job defining what a new series is and how one is awarded.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Theisey
NF could do two things to help us poor ole NF officials out.

1) define just what a "new" series really means
and
2) change the dang rule to match the NCAA rule where the result is clear cut on every legal kick.

What is a new series? About the only place I've seen something written about a new series or a series ending is in the OT section.

You are right about dealing with the penalty first, however after a legal kick team-A was awared a new series as a result of the RTK foul. Start the clock on the Snap.

Theis is right on this. We need clarification on what a new series is and we need to get NF and NCAA rules closer together. I see a slight trend in that direction in the last 10 years.