Wing/Referee Who's call is it? - Page 2

Simbio · #16 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 06:27pm

Thank you for all your responses.

I do believe this is a judgement call. If you've done enough games (or even if you haven't) I believe you can tell whether or not a back is shifting or going in motion and when it is a false start (he just plain messed up.)

I believe the rules state that action which simulates or feigns the start of a play is a false start. And with that it doesn't specify which position can committ it or that its different by position. A false start is a false start. Now if the back is head strong enough that he knows he messed up and goes into motion or shifts, (and it doesn't give the appearance of a false start) then yes, let it go.

I can't determine who's call it should be. Yes, the wings are watching the line, but if the ball is snapped on the opposite hash from you, you can still see the entire backfield. I think the responsibility should fall on both wing and referee.

Again, thanks for the responses, I appreciate all the insight and if you have anything further on this topic, by all means continue to share. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have a feeling this is one of those things that may be debated back and forth for a while. But I think its been a good discussion so far and should continue. I know its got me thinking...

Bob M. · #17 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 06:50pm

REPLY: My opinion is this. If anyone misses the snap count and moves, he's doing so the same way he would if the snap had occurred. How could he not be simulating action at the snap? Fullback "lunges" forward?? There's your answer. Backs shifting or going in motion do not "lunge" forward. You will never see such a play go off on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Every single college official and NFL official that I know would shut the play down. Nothing good can happen letting that play go off. And all that horse hockey about "He's a back. He can reset" went out with ballooned cotton knickers and stirrup socks. A back can reset ONLY if he hasn't committed a false start. The back in the original post has.

Rich · #18 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 10:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

Quote:

Originally posted by l3will

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Here's a hint, if a back misses a count but it could be motion and the ball is snapped then just kill it dead. Don't let the play go as the defense will gain an advantage.

And that is exactly why the state association wants it to be a live ball foul and illegal motion, not a false start.

That's interesting, I don't really agree with that. If you aren't sure it should be a false start. Nothing good can come from letting the play go, but that's just my opinion I guess.

For WHOM? The defense could intercept a pass or recover a fumble and take it to the house.

Regardless, I will shut that "lunge" down too. It's a false start. And the WH has to get it, IMO.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Sep 20th, 2005 at 11:28 PM]

parepat · #19 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 11:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: My opinion is this. If anyone misses the snap count and moves, he's doing so the same way he would if the snap had occurred. How could he not be simulating action at the snap? Fullback "lunges" forward?? There's your answer. Backs shifting or going in motion do not "lunge" forward. You will never see such a play go off on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Every single college official and NFL official that I know would shut the play down. Nothing good can happen letting that play go off. And all that horse hockey about "He's a back. He can reset" went out with ballooned cotton knickers and stirrup socks. A back can reset ONLY if he hasn't committed a false start. The back in the original post has.

I agree wholeheartedly. Missed snap count=simulating action at the snap

l3will · #20 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 21, 2005, 12:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by parepat

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: My opinion is this. If anyone misses the snap count and moves, he's doing so the same way he would if the snap had occurred. How could he not be simulating action at the snap? Fullback "lunges" forward?? There's your answer. Backs shifting or going in motion do not "lunge" forward. You will never see such a play go off on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Every single college official and NFL official that I know would shut the play down. Nothing good can happen letting that play go off. And all that horse hockey about "He's a back. He can reset" went out with ballooned cotton knickers and stirrup socks. A back can reset ONLY if he hasn't committed a false start. The back in the original post has.

I agree wholeheartedly. Missed snap count=simulating action at the snap

I agree that "lunges" implies simulating action at the snap...
but I don't agree that missing the snap count means that it is an automatic false start. You have to see it to call it and use good judgment.

JRutledge · #21 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 21, 2005, 12:46am

This is a judgment call. If you feel the player simulates the snap, you have a foul. If you have them just move, you might not have a foul. We do not need to complicate this issue.

Peace

WyMike · #22 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 21, 2005, 09:24am

There is a huge difference between a back going into motion/shifting, and a back missing a count, or at least for me there is.

My first year I tossed a flag a couple of times and blew the play dead. WH gets on me about it.

Following week at the assoc. meeting my 'false starts' are brought up and the assoc tells me they allow a back to jump - and then reset. Fine.

Following week I let a back 'false start' and reset and catch hell from the HC on my side. Nice, eh? I tell him I've been informed a back is allowed to reset when he "shifts". "Shifts!?!?! Shifts!?!? That was a false start sir!!!"

"Okay coach."

I hate that call, but I'm not arguing with 15-20yr WH's and one WH which is in his 50th season. But I do know a False Start (Simulating action at the snap), from a back who is shifting thank you very much.

WM

Simbio · #23 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 14, 2005, 02:12pm

Thanks for all the responses. I have one additional question that I don't think we covered.

Regardless the action in the backfield, who's call is it?

Wing, Referee, or both...?

The Roamin' Umpire · #24 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 15, 2005, 09:36am

Quick glance through the NF officials' manual is little help - it lists "false start" under pre-snap responsibilities for all officials without specifying who gets which.

For me, R has sole responsibility for backs in the backfield. R & U each have QB and interior linemen. Wings have any linemen they can see, and any split ends/flankers/etc. to their side.

Forksref · #25 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 15, 2005, 10:58am

We had one last night along these lines. We had a back start to move, then reset. (no foul) And then we had a wideout move prior to the snap(IM). We let the play go and came back to have IM. As R, I didn't see the wideout move. At first, I thought the wing had IM on the back, but I told him he could reset. We ended up with IM. These types of situations need to be discussed more and we have done a better job on these in our pregame. I got into a discussion with another official from another crew and he thinks a back moving is a false start and I said that it is only if the motion is really jerky and is causing movement into the neutral zone by B. As noticed in this thread, it is a gray area and I don't think it has to be. I have no problem bringing back a long play if we had motion because, frankly, it is not a "great" play if it had a foul in it.

Theisey · #26 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 15, 2005, 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Simbio
Thanks for all the responses. I have one additional question that I don't think we covered.

Regardless the action in the backfield, who's call is it?

Wing, Referee, or both...?

I think your question has been covered. I'll interject a few comments.
Backs lined up say between the ends should be the R's call. Backs lined up wider then the ends could be the R's call should he be looking though to that side otherwise a wing official should see this.

You flag it if you really beleive the guy missed the snap count. 99% of the time that's just what they did. I matters not to me that any defensive player reacted.

shave-tail · #27 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 15, 2005, 04:23pm

The "who's call is it" always bothers me. It's the responsibilty of the "4 or 5" to get it right...if you see it, flag it, even if you need to run across the field. In this case you can't call this play dead as a false start because its only a foul at the snap. The back has the opportunity to reset or go in motion. An example would be if the snap count was on three and the back jumps on one, he would have the time to reset.