Wing/Referee Who's call is it?

Simbio · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 06:07pm

In 5-man mechanics for high school:

Prior to the snap, the fullback lunges forward (got the snap count wrong.) What is the call and who's call is it?

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 06:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Simbio
In 5-man mechanics for high school:

Prior to the snap, the fullback lunges forward (got the snap count wrong.) What is the call and who's call is it?

Both officials (wings and Referee I am talking about) can call this.

You could either have a false start. No one on offense can simulate the snap. I would especially have a false start if the defense reacted to the FB's movement. Or you could let it go and have an illegal shift if the player never got set in the proper time frame.

Peace

Suudy · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
You could either have a false start. No one on offense can simulate the snap. I would especially have a false start if the defense reacted to the FB's movement. Or you could let it go and have an illegal shift if the player never got set in the proper time frame.

This can be a real bugger for wing guys. When the B sideline sees this they frequenly scream for a false start. But like you said, I usually only call it if B reacts, otherwise I treat it like motion/shift.

Explaining it to the coach is often the fun part. I tell him exactly what I thought (yeah he jumped but it was motion not a false start) and they usually accept that. The problem comes when you are inconsistent--especially in the same game!

[Edited by Suudy on Sep 19th, 2005 at 08:05 PM]

Simbio · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 06:57pm

Here's an opinion of mine that some may agree with and some may not, but I think it should be out there regardless.

I think either the wings or referee can call this and I believe we should stick with the straight definition of it being a false start, not a motion or shift and here's why:

It is a lot easier to just kill the play and move it back 5 yards, then it is to bring back a touchdown, first down, etc.

I think if you let this call go as a live ball foul, sooner or later it will catch up to you and you'll wind up having to bring a great play back where you could've just killed it right then and there.

It does state in the rule book (and this is just from memory) that action that simulates or feigns the start of the play is a false start and NEVER specifies what player position.

Forksref · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 07:25pm

Simply missing the snap count and leaving early is not a false start by a back. It has to simulate action at the snap. I have called illegal shift for not being set more often than not. Generally, a false start is by an interior lineman. Most movement by backs, I don't make it a dead ball foul unless it is more of a jerking motion that looks like action at the snap. This is purely judgment by each official.

l3will · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 10:38pm

Let's be careful, going early by a back is not necessarily a false start, or even illegal motion. There are some teams who
have the back take a step forward as part of legally going into motion, the back is going back when the ball is snapped.

The back legally establishes himself in the back field by setting with the rest of the team. Takes a step forward, then parallels the line of scrimmage or goes back away from the line of scrimmage.

The state association even emphasized that too many officials were calling false starts on backs. They emphasized that if a back or end was going forward at the snap that it should be called as illegal motion, unless it was obvious that
it simulated action at the snap or intended to draw a reaction by B and A did not violate the neutral zone.

It's a fine line, I know, but if there is no reaction, I think you have to either call illegal motion if the back is going forward at the snap or if at the snap he is going parallel or back then the motion would be legal.

grantsrc · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 10:42pm

Anything in the backfield should be R's call. Wings don't pick up the action until the LOS. Remeber, if he simulates the snap, get 'em for the false start. But I would be a little more leniate with this than say, a tackle or guard. Give the back the benefit of the doubt. He really doesn't gain an advantage and many of the defenders won't see him jump anyway.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 10:46pm

I do not think anyone is saying to just call a false start on a back just because they move. The question dealt with a back missing the snap count and lunging forward. This is strictly a judgment call. The point is you can have a false start on a back. There is a big difference between going in motion and lunging forward.

Peace

l3will · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 10:55pm

Agree it is a judgment call, but I have seen many backs take a very quick step forward as part of going into motion legally.
Interestingly, B, when playing this type of team never seems to react to that motion, I guess because they watch films or were coached about how A went into motion.

[Edited by l3will on Sep 19th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 11:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by l3will
Agree it is a judgment call,

This is why we get paid the big bucks.

Peace

Snake~eyes · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 11:20pm

Here's a hint, if a back misses a count but it could be motion and the ball is snapped then just kill it dead. Don't let the play go as the defense will gain an advantage.

l3will · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 09:02am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Here's a hint, if a back misses a count but it could be motion and the ball is snapped then just kill it dead. Don't let the play go as the defense will gain an advantage.

And that is exactly why the state association wants it to be a live ball foul and illegal motion, not a false start.

Snake~eyes · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by l3will

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Here's a hint, if a back misses a count but it could be motion and the ball is snapped then just kill it dead. Don't let the play go as the defense will gain an advantage.

And that is exactly why the state association wants it to be a live ball foul and illegal motion, not a false start.

That's interesting, I don't really agree with that. If you aren't sure it should be a false start. Nothing good can come from letting the play go, but that's just my opinion I guess.

mcrowder · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 04:31pm

I hate it when the judgement of officials comes from the "Nothing good can come from letting this go" department. That's not our job. If it was, we'd kill EVERY play the moment we see a penalty. We don't do that - so why the motivation to do that in this case? The defense should have the opportunity to decline an illegal shift penalty - don't take that away from them.

You just want a rule of thumb? Here it is.

If, after seeing the back move, you would have let him reset had the ball not been snapped at that moment, then you have an illegal shift. If you would NOT have let him reset had the ball not been snapped, you have a false start.

stevesmith · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 20, 2005, 05:27pm

In another sport, we used to have a "boss" that told us, "We are paid to make judgement calls, so make them!"

In this case, I think you have to "read the mind" of the back. Did he false start or can he save himself now by going into motion and resetting? In all my years of football, I don't ever recall any formation requiring the back to take one quick step forward and reset. Granted, I'm not the offensive coordinator designing the play, but I've usually got a pretty good idea of what was supposed to happen from the way the player reacted. I think you give the back time to make the step into motion and maybe reset and if he does, let it go. If not, it was a false start.

And by the way, I believe this is the referee's call all the way.