9 Yd Marks and a Spread Offense

[waltjp]

A question came up in tonight's interpretation meeting and I wanted to get your collective opinion on it.

We all know the new rule about A players being inside the 9-yard marks after the RFP. So what do you do when a team is using a spread formation combined with a no-huddle or hurry-up offense, which could easily put a wide receiver outside of the nine yard marks?

Consider the closing moments of a game, A trailing by 5 points and using a hurry up offense. They complete a pass in the middle of the field for a 1st down. They hurry to the line and are waiting for the officials to set the chains and give the ready for play signal. If their widest receiver(s) are set outside of the nine yard marks are you going to flag them?

This is clearly not an attempt to deceive B and by requiring them to be momentarily inside the 9-yard marks the rule is forcing them to use time once the RFP is blown and the clock starts.

[MJT]

Originally posted by waltjp
A question came up in tonight's interpretation meeting and I wanted to get your collective opinion on it.

We all know the new rule about A players being inside the 9-yard marks after the RFP. So what do you do when a team is using a spread formation combined with a no-huddle or hurry-up offense, which could easily put a wide receiver outside of the nine yard marks?

Consider the closing moments of a game, A trailing by 5 points and using a hurry up offense. They complete a pass in the middle of the field for a 1st down. They hurry to the line and are waiting for the officials to set the chains and give the ready for play signal. If their widest receiver(s) are set outside of the nine yard marks are you going to flag them?

This is clearly not an attempt to deceive B and by requiring them to be momentarily inside the 9-yard marks the rule is forcing them to use time once the RFP is blown and the clock starts.

I called and talked to our supervisor of officials personally and he said it MUST be called, and called consistenty! He said they must adjust and be inside the marks until the RFP no matter what. It doesn't matter if they are covered up or not. They need to adjust their formation, or shift after the RFP. He was very adamant about it.

[grantsrc]

Walt-
No offense to you but how many times are we going to have this same topic/post? This idea comes up time after time on forum after forum and we just can't seem to make any headway on this topic.

A topic was posted on the Fed forum about having knowledge that goes beyond the letter of the law (rule books). I think that we, as officials, need to step back and look at the intent of this rule. The Fed adopted this in order to stop A from gaining an advantage from the hide out play. Obivously, if B covers a WO that hasn't come inside the marks B is not being deceived. Now, should we mention something to the coach/player about this. Probably. Should we flag it the first time we see it? I don't think so. If B recognizes the WO and defends him= no flag. If B doesn't see him and there is an obvious advantage gained then yes, we should flag A. Hard to identify at first but this is something where we, as officials, need to step back and look at the bigger picture.

My personal opinion, this rule will be changed or modified to answer these types of situations. Not sure how, but I think it will.

[MJT]

I hear you Grant, but our supervisor said him being covered or not is no different than if they only have 6 on the line instead of seven. No advantage is gained, but it is a foul.

Don't shoot the messenger!!!

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by MJT
I hear you Grant, but our supervisor said him being covered or not is no different than if they only have 6 on the line instead of seven. No advantage is gained, but it is a foul.

Don't shoot the messenger!!!

Same here in NY, they want it called even though commen sense would dictate only using it when A has gained an advantage. I think we blew the 15 yards from the ball call so often by calling it differently depending on who was the wing that they adjusted the rule for 9 yard marks so now they want the 9 yard marks enforced. There are several rules where I scratch my head and say, "What affect does that have?" Usually, the answer is, "At the varsity level, if one team trains to do it right and executes flawlessly by the rules as written, but we fail to flag their opponent because no advantage was gained, the former team has lost an advantage they should have had based upon their superior training and disciplined execution."

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by MJT
I hear you Grant, but our supervisor said him being covered or not is no different than if they only have 6 on the line instead of seven. No advantage is gained, but it is a foul.

Don't shoot the messenger!!!

I think I might do the same thing MJT did and get an interpretation from the state here just so I don't get so worked up over this all the time!

Trust me MJT, it isn't "us" that gets me frustrated with this. What frustrates me is that we are calling this by the letter of the law when I don't think it has to be that way. I am a rule follower. For those of you familiar with Myers/Briggs personality tests I am an ESTJ. The first thing in the explanation of an ESTJ is "Rule follower." But I don't think this is one that we need to follow as written.

Here's my beef:
A is in a hurry up offense. A11 throws a completed pass and while the ball being spotted, A83, who ran a slant over the middle of the field is heading back to the line of scrimmage. He runs from the middle of the field to the middle of the numbers where he lines up for the next play. B34, who is the CB on A83's side, lines up head on and within one yard of the LOS from A83. Once A83 is in position in the middle of the numbers, R blows the ready for play.

Technically, in this play you would have an illegal formation. WHY????? Because it says so in the rule book. But did A get an advantage? Was B deceived by anything in that?

To tie in another thread here about coaching/talking with players, some of us would also choose to not say anything to A83 or his coach in this situation and flag him for that rather than tell him to stay inside the numbers.

Just doesn't make sense to me....

[waltjp]

Just to wrap up the interpretation from our meeting - we were told to flag it. I agree with you all, there's no deception here but we're told that's not a consideration.

[Dale Smith]

These fouls are 100% preventable. It might be a pain to remind the wide out to get inside the number until the RFP but it avoids a foul. It is getting close to the middle of the season and the coaches and the players should be aware of the rule by now.
One other thing, how do you justify not calling the infraction to team B’s coach whose team runs the spread offense and complies with the rule on every play?
If we enforce the rule as written and enough coaches view the rule as a bad rule, they will complain to there state origination loud enough to force a change of rule.
Just my $.02 worth.

[WyMike]

We were also instructed to flag it. Ironically we haven't had any problem with this, even though our assoc- and many others here - came up with a number of "scenarios" to interpret.

WM

[Ed Hickland]

Preventative officiating. I think "inside the numbers" MUST be called regardless if it is to be effective. The wings are the key to making it effective.

As I prepare my pregame my order to the wings is as they complete a play stay inside the numbers until the ready. This gives the teams a reference and the wings also for where players should be. The wings must police for players outside the numbers and move them inside.

[l3will]

So you going to call it if you A breaks the huddle, you get
ready to mark it ready (everyone is okay), then notice
that a back has a shoulder pad outside of his jersey.
( Or anything that causes the WH to call an official timeout
for equipment. ). Then the WH give the RFP after team
A has already gotten into their formation with wideouts
outside of the 9 yard mark ????

I guess if you are a strict legalist you would toss the flag,
but I think this is where some judgement comes into play.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by l3will
So you going to call it if you A breaks the huddle, you get
ready to mark it ready (everyone is okay), then notice
that a back has a shoulder pad outside of his jersey.
( Or anything that causes the WH to call an official timeout
for equipment. ). Then the WH give the RFP after team
A has already gotten into their formation with wideouts
outside of the 9 yard mark ????

I guess if you are a strict legalist you would toss the flag,
but I think this is where some judgement comes into play.

Good point, I think I let it slide on this one because A had complied with the rule prior to the equipment time out, while the 25 second clock restarts, I would take the first RFP as the start of the time window where A must be between the nines.

The best example we had at our meeting was team B has the ball on the hash nearest their sideline and there is a time out. B's coach has an authorized conference 1 yard from his sideline. As the referee blows the RFP, they move into position on the ball. A88, in a split end position, lines up 4.5 yards from the sideline, in a normal formation and is covered by the defense. The message we got from our state is that they need to modify their lining up so everyone moves inside the nines then back out to their designed position. Even in this case the state says flag it.

I am all for using judgement, but the state is worried about consistency with a new rule and wants it enforced in a standard way.

[actmiller]

If B is not deceived and A gains no advantage - no flag. Sweet and simple. The thread that compared this with 6 men on the line in incorrect. 6-men on the line gives A a distinct advantage because they now potentially have 7 eligible receivers instead of 6 which will totally confuse B as to who they are to cover. This rule was changed to be more in line with NCAA. NCAA doesn't have a problem with the rule and they don't flag it when B is not being deceived. When was the last time you saw that one flagged on National TV?

[JDLJ]

actmiller, The rule for seven on the line goes back to the early days of football. It was not changed to be more in line with the NCAA. It also does not give A any extra receivers since the uncovered tackle has a non-eligible number.

A gains an advantage because they can run their hurry up offense faster than they would if they complied with the rule.

As Dale Miller said, this is 100% preventable and, if we help the players early on, it will be a non-issue as the year goes on.

[Texas Aggie]

>>6 on the line instead of seven. No advantage is gained<<

6 on the line IS an advantage gained, especially on passing downs. Besides, its like stepping out of bounds in basketball: it is an inherent advantage gained, regardless of what the defense does or does not do in response.