illegal forward pass

[yankeesfan]

2nd and 10 for A on its own 30. A1 runs 25 yards and throws the ball forward to A2 which hits the ground and recovered by B. wouldnt the play be blown dead at the B45 where the forward pass was thrown? where is the penalty administered and what down will it be?

[Edited by yankeesfan on Aug 30th, 2005 at 12:18 AM]

[Patton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yankeesfan
2nd and 10 for A on its own 30. A1 runs 25 yards and throws the ball forward to A2 which hits the ground and recovered by B. wouldnt the play be blown dead at the B45 where the forward pass was thrown?

No. No foul causes the ball to become dead. The incomplete forward pass will cause the ball to be come dead though.

where is the penalty administered and what down will it be?

The penalty will be assessed from the B45, the spot of the foul. It will be 1 and 10 for A at the 50 after the 5 yard enforcement.

[yankeesfan]

wouldn't the loss of down come into play in this situation?

[Patton]

Originally posted by yankeesfan
wouldn't the loss of down come into play in this situation?

Not in this case since after the 5 yard enforcement, A has still passed the line to gain. You never lose the right to play the 1st down.

If it was 2nd and 10 from the 30 and A7 runs to the A40 where he throws the incomplete forward pass, the 5 yard penalty would be assesed from 40 making it 3rd and 5 from the 35. The loss of down comes into play on this one because after enforcement the line to gain has not been reached.

I'm not the best at explaining things...am I making sense?

[yankeesfan]

yes, thank you

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by yankeesfan
2nd and 10 for A on its own 30. A1 runs 25 yards and throws the ball forward to A2 which hits the ground and recovered by B. wouldnt the play be blown dead at the B45 where the forward pass was thrown? where is the penalty administered and what down will it be?

Offside pass subject to penalty. B will decline and take the ball.

[dh898]

No, I don't think that's right. A still has possession but it would be 2-15 from A's 25. I'm looking at the penalty summary from the Officials Manual and it does not say loss of down. I orginally thought the penalty was inforced from the spot of the foul but that would give the A the advantage of a 1st down at the 50. Seems that would not be much of a penalty to A.

Again, being a newbie I appreciate the ability to talk things out here and the feedback makes things much clearer. Officiated my first scrimmage over the weekend and it was fantastic once I settled down. The first 10 plays or so I saw nothing but flashes so I worked on slowing things down and concentrating on my keys and the lightbulb started to come on. It's a little dim at the moment but after another scrimmage and 2 Pop Warner games this weekend I'm begining to realize, I know nothing. Man this is hard work, but oh what fun.

[Warrenkicker]

Patton has it correct above. Any pass which is illegally thrown is part of a running play and not the standard loose-ball play. The penalty for an illegal pass is enforced from the spot of the foul. If the penalty is declined then the end of the run is the spot of the foul and the ball will next be snapped from that spot.

This is one situation where you might say the penalty is not very severe but the foul was also not very severe. A did run for all of those yards and has to give 5 back for something stupid. Mark off 5 yards from the spot of the foul and see if the line-to-gain was reached. If it was then the loss-of-down has no meaning.

[Texoma_LJ]

dh898

this is indeed a loss of down penalty.. I dont have my book with me but should be covered in rule 10. The penalty summary at the back of the book does indeed not list a loss of down with this foul but there was an update on the NFHS site I believe for this.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by dh898
No, I don't think that's right. A still has possession but it would be 2-15 from A's 25. I'm looking at the penalty summary from the Officials Manual and it does not say loss of down. I orginally thought the penalty was inforced from the spot of the foul but that would give the A the advantage of a 1st down at the 50. Seems that would not be much of a penalty to A.

Again, being a newbie I appreciate the ability to talk things out here and the feedback makes things much clearer. Officiated my first scrimmage over the weekend and it was fantastic once I settled down. The first 10 plays or so I saw nothing but flashes so I worked on slowing things down and concentrating on my keys and the lightbulb started to come on. It's a little dim at the moment but after another scrimmage and 2 Pop Warner games this weekend I'm begining to realize, I know nothing. Man this is hard work, but oh what fun.

I'm not sure about the Official's Manual but the rule book had a correction on the Penalty Summary page and that you were to add the words "also loss of down" to #16, which is the illegal fwd pass (by A). Glad you're having fun!

[BayouUmp]

Technically, there is a loss of down. You're assessing the penalty and you're not replaying 4th down. The next down just happens to be 1st since they achieved the line to gain before the illegal forward pass. When the spot of enforcement is beyond the line to gain you have a new series for A.

[wisref2]

"Loss of down" is really a misnomer - it's actually "loss of the right to replay the down." See the most important rule in football-Rule 2, specifically 2.7.2. This is an important distinction, especially in a play like this one. Team A does not loose first down. They loose the right to replay second down.

Also see 5-2-2 (last sentence): The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement.

[MJT]

Originally posted by wisref2
"Loss of down" is really a misnomer - it's actually "loss of the right to replay the down." See the most important rule in football-Rule 2, specifically 2.7.2. This is an important distinction, especially in a play like this one. Team A does not loose first down. They loose the right to replay second down.

Also see 5-2-2 (last sentence): The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement.

wisref2 is showing his wisdom on this one.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally posted by dh898
No, I don't think that's right. A still has possession but it would be 2-15 from A's 25. I'm looking at the penalty summary from the Officials Manual and it does not say loss of down. I orginally thought the penalty was inforced from the spot of the foul but that would give the A the advantage of a 1st down at the 50. Seems that would not be much of a penalty to A.

Again, being a newbie I appreciate the ability to talk things out here and the feedback makes things much clearer. Officiated my first scrimmage over the weekend and it was fantastic once I settled down. The first 10 plays or so I saw nothing but flashes so I worked on slowing things down and concentrating on my keys and the lightbulb started to come on. It's a little dim at the moment but after another scrimmage and 2 Pop Warner games this weekend I'm begining to realize, I know nothing. Man this is hard work, but oh what fun.

dh898,

Tex is right. Go to the NF web site. They have a whole list of corrections and revised rulings to the rule book and case book.

I went through and pencilled in those corrections in my books. Don't be afraid to write in them. I suggest you and all othicials do this.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long

dh898,

Tex is right. Go to the NF web site. They have a whole list of corrections and revised rulings to the rule book and case book.

I went through and pencilled in those corrections in my books. Don't be afraid to write in them. I suggest you and all othicials do this.

Mr. Long

Normally this would be a loss of down, but since the line to gain was made after the 5 yard foul was marked off it WILL be 1st and 10 for A. There is never a case you can take away 1st down from a team that just made the line to gain after all fouls have been considered. I suggest that you pick up your book and read it a little more. This is not the first time you are trying to refute information that has already been correctly stated.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Sep 1st, 2005 at 06:22 AM]