Casebook error?

[Topshelf]

I was advised that 3.5.11 Situation A was an error because there was no rule support for the ruling.

The play reads: "It is third and 8 from A's 45 when A1 throws an incomplete forward pass. Erroneously the ball is spotted at the 50 and K1 punts the ball into R's EZ. Following the down, the R captain requests a time-out so the coach may discuss the misapplication of the rules with the referee. RULING: Since the spotting of the ball was part of the previous play, it is too late to make any correction. The error had to be recognized and correction made before the ball was snapped on 4th down."

What is the correct course of action by rule?

[ljudge]

It was always my understanding that you could only go back a down if it was a timing error, nothing else. I don't believe this is an error in the case book.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I'm with ljudge agreeing that the case book is correct. There are basically two (2) types of errors that can be corrected: (1) errors in timing where you can go back one play and fix the timing error [see NF 3-4-6], and (2) errors that result from a misinterpretation or misapplication of a rule. This latter error must be corrected before the ball next becomes alive following the play in which the error occurred and prior to the ending of the period. [See NF 3-5-11] That means that once the referee holds the ball aloft at the end of the period, it's too late to correct any misapplication error occurring on the final play of the prior period. Now, between you and me, if I had spotted the ball incorrectly as described in the original post, and then ended the period, I would certainly fix it if brought to my attention before we switched ends of the field. Technically, I'd be wrong, but common sense should prevail IMHO.

[PSU213]

3-5-11 reads in part: "A player, directed by his coach, may request and be granted a time out...provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed, unless the period has ended."

So, as Bob M. stated, the Rule Book supports the Case Book. Also, as Bob M. states, I may even correct the spot of the ball after the period is declared over (although the spot is probably about it).

[JDLJ]

This happened in a Monday Night game last year. I think it was KC and GB? Anyway, at the end of the first half the officials forgot to mark off a five yard penalty on the defence prior to the last play of the half. The last play was a field goal attempt that was short. As the teams started to leave the field, one of the players reminded the officials that they had not marked off the five yards. The crew brought the teams back on the field (and they had to chase off the half time entertainment that was starting to set up) and marched off the five yards and K tried a second kick (also no good).

They screwed up by bringing the team back and trying again. At that point, a play had been run and they could not correct the error. I'm sure they really got dinged by the league for two screw ups on one penalty.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by JDLJ
This happened in a Monday Night game last year. I think it was KC and GB? Anyway, at the end of the first half the officials forgot to mark off a five yard penalty on the defence prior to the last play of the half. The last play was a field goal attempt that was short. As the teams started to leave the field, one of the players reminded the officials that they had not marked off the five yards. The crew brought the teams back on the field (and they had to chase off the half time entertainment that was starting to set up) and marched off the five yards and K tried a second kick (also no good).

They screwed up by bringing the team back and trying again. At that point, a play had been run and they could not correct the error. I'm sure they really got dinged by the league for two screw ups on one penalty.

Poor Bernie.

[Warrenkicker]

There is another situation where a change can be made. If the down is incorrect it can be corrected at any time until that series ends.

5.1.1 SITUATION A: What procedure is used to correct an error if it is discovered: (a) a fifth down has been run; or (b) A has not been given its allotted four downs? RULING: In (a), if the referee determines a team has been given a fifth down, play will revert back to where it was before the fifth down was run. However, once a change of possession occurs or a new series has been awarded, no change can be made. In (b), the number of the next down can be corrected until that series has ended.

[regas14]

I'm preparing for my first season as an official and was reading this section of the rule book and case book last night.

My interpretation is that spotting the ball is the end of the preceeding play not the beginning of the succeeding play, therefore in the case listed, the error occurs during 3rd down. As soon as the ball is made live for 4th down, this error becomes uncorrectable.

Just like the case book says. As a rookie, who am I to question the case book?

[JDLJ]

Warrenkicker, When Colorado scores against Missouri on a 5th down, can the play be reversed before the next kickoff?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by regas14

My interpretation is that spotting the ball is the end of the preceeding play not the beginning of the succeeding play, therefore in the case listed, the error occurs during 3rd down. As soon as the ball is made live for 4th down, this error becomes uncorrectable.

REPLY: Not really true...when the ball is placed and blown ready-for-play for the fourth down, it's still a dead ball. It doesn't become live until it's snapped. As a rookie you'll learn a lot this season. Look at the definitions of live ball and dead ball in Rule 2 (NF 2-1-1 and 2-1-2). Blowing the ball RFP doesn't make it live.

[Jim S]

Agreed.
READ Rule 2, READ Rule 2, READ Rule 2

[regas14]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Not really true...when the ball is placed and blown ready-for-play for the fourth down, it's still a dead ball. It doesn't become live until it's snapped. As a rookie you'll learn a lot this season. Look at the definitions of live ball and dead ball in Rule 2 (NF 2-1-1 and 2-1-2). Blowing the ball RFP doesn't make it live.

Thanks Bob, but I think we're saying the same thing. My choice of words may not have been clear, but what I'm trying to say is that placing the ball is done at the end of 3rd down, not the beginning of 4th down. Therefore once the ball is snapped (made live) for 4th down, that error which was made during 3rd down cannot be corrected. If the error is detected before the ball is made live for 4th down it can be corrected. Is that correct? My thinking is that any error made after the ball is snapped for 3rd down may only be corrected until the ball is snapped for 4th down, correct?

I hope I'm right because I already been berated in the Basketball forum today. If I'm wrong still I'd appreciate the correction.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by JDLJ
Warrenkicker, When Colorado scores against Missouri on a 5th down, can the play be reversed before the next kickoff?

Well I don't know about the NCAA rules on that one but I think that under NF rules I would say no. The series of downs ended once the try was snapped. 5-2-6 implies that a try comes after a series of downs has ended.

Originally posted by regas14
I'm preparing for my first season as an official and was reading this section of the rule book and case book last night.

My interpretation is that spotting the ball is the end of the preceeding play not the beginning of the succeeding play, therefore in the case listed, the error occurs during 3rd down. As soon as the ball is made live for 4th down, this error becomes uncorrectable.

Just like the case book says. As a rookie, who am I to question the case book?

Couple of keys to watch is the down ends when the play is over. The next down does not start until it is legal snaped or free kicked. Keep reading and re-reading. This is also a great place to test your knowledge!

[waltjp]

Originally posted by regas14
I hope I'm right because I already been berated in the Basketball forum today. If I'm wrong still I'd appreciate the correction.

Could the basketball forum possibly be worse than the baseball forum?

[Edited by waltjp on Jul 8th, 2005 at 01:56 PM]