Stump the chump, 3-24

[MJT]

1. 1-10 for A at its own 20 yard line. A1’s legal forward pass is caught by A2 at A’s 35 and runs to A’s 40 where he fumbles. A3 recovers the fumble at A’s 45 and runs to B’s 40, where he is downed. B1 was flagged for roughing the passer on the play.

2. A run by A1 leaves the ball close to the line to gain. Substitute A2 comes into the game, replacing A3 to be a 2nd tight end. After A3 reaches the sideline, the referee stops the clock and measures to see if there is a 1st down. After measurement the line to gain was reached so it is 1st down. Can A3 come back into the game for the upcoming 1st down play? If not, under what circumstances can he?

I have edited this to state how you need to state NCAA or NF, as in at least one of the plays, there is a difference in the rulings.

[Edited by MJT on Mar 25th, 2005 at 12:11 AM]

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Fed rulings

Originally posted by MJT
1. 1-10 for A at its own 20 yard line. A1�s legal forward pass is caught by A2 at A�s 35 and runs to A�s 40 where he fumbles. A3 recovers the fumble at A�s 45 and runs to B�s 40, where he is downed. B1 was flagged for roughing the passer on the play.

1/10 for A at the B25. RTP is enforced from the end of the last run if the pass is complete.

2. A run by A1 leaves the ball close to the line to gain. Substitute A2 comes into the game, replacing A3 to be a 2nd tight end. After A3 reaches the sideline, the referee stops the clock and measures to see if there is a 1st down. After measurement the line to gain was reached so it is 1st down. Can A3 come back into the game for the upcoming 1st down play? If not, under what circumstances can he?

Well, I'm going to let him on the field. I believe the correct answer by the book is no, he has to stay out unless there's a penalty, timeout, or end-of-quarter.

[Edited by The Roamin' Umpire on Mar 25th, 2005 at 10:43 AM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by The Roamin' Umpire

1/10 for A at the B25. RTP is enforced from the end of the last run if the pass is complete.

Well, I'm going to let him on the field. I believe the correct answer by the book is no, he has to stay out unless there's a penalty, timeout, or end-of-quarter.

Please state NCAA or NF, as in at least one of the plays, there is a difference in the rulings.

[Rick KY]

Roaming Ump's response brings up a good point. If this crew was doing their job correctly, the clock would have stopped sooner, thus giving A's coaches a chance to make more appropriate substitutions under the circumstances. Is this a correctable error? If so, then I agree with letting A3 back in the game. The late measurement is an error on the part of the officials that cost A in this case. The L and LJ should have been more aware of down and distance and the need to stop clock for measurment or to move the chains.

The other side of that presents similar issues. What would have happened here had A sent out the punt unit? Would you let them bring them all back off again?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by MJT
1. 1-10 for A at its own 20 yard line. A1’s legal forward pass is caught by A2 at A’s 35 and runs to A’s 40 where he fumbles. A3 recovers the fumble at A’s 45 and runs to B’s 40, where he is downed. B1 was flagged for roughing the passer on the play.

2. A run by A1 leaves the ball close to the line to gain. Substitute A2 comes into the game, replacing A3 to be a 2nd tight end. After A3 reaches the sideline, the referee stops the clock and measures to see if there is a 1st down. After measurement the line to gain was reached so it is 1st down. Can A3 come back into the game for the upcoming 1st down play? If not, under what circumstances can he?

I have edited this to state how you need to state NCAA or NF, as in at least one of the plays, there is a difference in the rulings.

1. Unnecessary roughness on B, 15 yards from PBD. A1D/10 @ B-25.

2. Yes

[MJT]

Originally posted by Rick KY
Roaming Ump's response brings up a good point. If this crew was doing their job correctly, the clock would have stopped sooner, thus giving A's coaches a chance to make more appropriate substitutions under the circumstances. Is this a correctable error? If so, then I agree with letting A3 back in the game. The late measurement is an error on the part of the officials that cost A in this case. The L and LJ should have been more aware of down and distance and the need to stop clock for measurment or to move the chains.

The other side of that presents similar issues. What would have happened here had A sent out the punt unit? Would you let them bring them all back off again?

Great point Rick KY! IMO you need to look at the intent of the rule, and I don't think the intent was violated in the initial question, or in yours regarding thinking they were going to punt and then not having to.

I would like to know your opinions. I am going to let the extra TE, and the player he replaced exchange, and the punt team/regular offense also do so without a TO or the other situations mentioned in the rule book. What about you guys??

[ljudge]

I think it depends on timing. The initial case doesn't really indicate whether the measurement was "late" per-se. If it really was a late measurement then I might be inclined to allow the swaps without a TO as you guys have noted. But, if the A player went immediately over to his team box and was legally replaced all while my LJ is yelling to me "he's close, he's close" and I take a look and agree we need to take a measurement I wouldn't necessarily say that was a "late" measurement. In that case I probably would make him take a TO to come back in the game. I guess it's one of those "gut feel...gotta be there" situations.

[Rick KY]

I would let the replaced players re-enter under the circumstances. This appears to be an officiating error by not stopping the clock sooner for the measurement.

Now if the clock was stopped as soon as the ball became dead, and the decision about new down and distance was settled, then A made a premature substitution, and I would not allow A3 back on the field.

I would use the same logic for a group of subs in punt situation as I would for the TE.