New IP Rule (3.7.1)

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

So you are saying the NF wants us to call a live ball IP foul anytime we throw a flag for a nonplayer stepping on the field. I can see a nonplayer coming onto the field to be involved in the play, even if he does not influence it, cuz it takes the judgement off of us, but if they step off the sideline as well??? I will have to see a case play similar to what you asked to make that call. Like I said, probably a "no call" anyway, but if we do call it, we need to know what the proper call is. I hope they answer this specific play for us to look at. Where and when is the July NFHS Football Rules Interpreters meeting anyway? Who goes, and is it open to the general public, us normal officials, or by invitation only.?

The Football Rules Interpreters Meeting is held each July in Indianapolis. It is attended by State Rules Interpreters and/or their designee. As far as is it open to the public my understanding is that in order to attend your state office has to submit a request throught the NFHS office. I suggest if you are interested in attending to route your request through your state office, chances are you can attend. I would also venture to guess that you will have to pay your own way.

I am not saying I disagree with your officiating logic MJT, I am saying what was discussed and voted on in January. Remember however, nothing is gospil until the Rule Book is released, and, as was the case of the first year of PSK, it wasn't really clear then. The Editorial Commitee, (See NFHS Rule Book Page 5 for names and photos) writes the final wording on rules.

[ljudge]

This will be interesting then how they actually phrase this. I'm concerned that officials are going to look bad in all of this. In N.J. the state athletic assocation (NJSIAA) has clearly communicated to officials that sideline management remains a concern. In fact, I've heard rumors that playoff crews recommended by local assigners were rejected by the state (the state has final approvals for playoffs) because a state official had covered games officiated by those same recommended crews earlier in the season and weren't happy that flags weren't being thrown for coaches roaming out of the coaches box. So not only do the officials have to deal with that issue if they want playoff assignments, they need to do so in a way that will annoy the hell out of everybody; even more so with this very expensive penalty. We'll see how this plays out.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by ljudge
This will be interesting then how they actually phrase this. I'm concerned that officials are going to look bad in all of this. In N.J. the state athletic assocation (NJSIAA) has clearly communicated to officials that sideline management remains a concern. In fact, I've heard rumors that playoff crews recommended by local assigners were rejected by the state (the state has final approvals for playoffs) because a state official had covered games officiated by those same recommended crews earlier in the season and weren't happy that flags weren't being thrown for coaches roaming out of the coaches box. So not only do the officials have to deal with that issue if they want playoff assignments, they need to do so in a way that will annoy the hell out of everybody; even more so with this very expensive penalty. We'll see how this plays out.

The coaches attend the same meeting I do and they hear the same sideline control speech I hear so it shouldn't be a surprise to them when the hanky hits the turf, right? In your coaches meeting, spell it out. It's not our issue, it's the Fed's, we're just the piano player. I don't want to be an over officious jerk but sideline control is certainly no secret to anyone.

[ljudge]

I agree but your logic only has one "flaw." (OK, not really). It would be great if the coaches came to the annual rules meeting. On a serious note your point is well taken.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by ljudge
How are we to enforce the following rule change to 3.7.1 that was previously a non-player foul? The following was taken directly from the Fed site for convenience...

In Rule 3, the substitution rule was changed to make the entry of a substitute during the down a foul for illegal participation rather than illegal substitution. Rule 3-7 was amended to require all players, replaced players and substitutes to leave the field on the side of their team box, and that replaced players or substitutes go directly to their team box. Rule 9-6 was amended to classify the entry of a player, replaced player or substitute as illegal participation if such happens during the down, and to clearly state the penalty for illegal participation.

OK, my question is as follows. HOW do we administer the penalty?

Sample case play:

A's ball 1st and 10 at the B25. A only has 10 players on the field. Immediately after the ball is snapped an A player runs on to the field at the 50 and runs toward the play but does not participate in the play. The QB throws a pass and it's caught for a touchdown.

OLD RULING: TD Counts. Administer the non-player foul on from the succeeding spot (the try) which is the 3-yard line. So the try will be administered from the 8.

NEW RULING: It's IP with the new rule. I know the TD will not stand because it's now enforced as a player foul. But where do we administer the foul from? It was A's ball on the B25. Remember A runs out of he team box at the 50. Is it 2nd down from A's own 35? Enforced from the previous spot? What?

My assumption: It's A's ball 1st and 50 from the A35. This is strictly a guess. I'm curious as to whether this was discussed on another thread, or if not what you guys think it should be.

Woulf this play not qualify for the new rule, all offensive players must be inside the 9yd line prior to the snap? Or have i messed up the rule??

[MJT]

Originally posted by MJT

So you are saying the NF wants us to call a live ball IP foul anytime we throw a flag for a nonplayer stepping on the field. I can see a nonplayer coming onto the field to be involved in the play, even if he does not influence it, cuz it takes the judgement off of us, but if they step off the sideline as well??? I will have to see a case play similar to what you asked to make that call. Like I said, probably a "no call" anyway, but if we do call it, we need to know what the proper call is. I hope they answer this specific play for us to look at. Where and when is the July NFHS Football Rules Interpreters meeting anyway? Who goes, and is it open to the general public, us normal officials, or by invitation only.?

I was very glad to see our exact senario discussed in the new April 2005 Referee magazine. "On a long TD, while the ball is still live 3 team A players take one or two steps on the field in a spontaneous reaction to the play." As I thought, they are stating that a "literal interpretation of the play would not violate the new ill-sub/ill-participation rule," but would "technically" would violate rule 9-8-li, which is a nonplayer illegally on the field. They then stated that "because it is clear the team A players were not attempting to participate or influence the play, no foul should be called.

IF you were to call a foul, say a wing official ran into players illegally on the field, it would be a nonplayer illegally on the field, which is a 15 yard penalty enforced from the PS. This IMO would be the only appropriate call, IF one is needed, cuz taking away the TD is way to severe of a penalty.

[NorthAlaUmp]

Consider this play:
B1 intercepts A1's forward pass in B's endzone and returns it unmolested 104 yards up the B sideline for an apparrant TD. After B1 (still near the sidline) has ran by and passed his team box, several non-players of B step on to the field to watch the TD. The Umpire, (who by this time has recovered and has made it all the way out to the B-15) observes this illegal? activity by the B bench and throws his flag. The Umpire then reports that the B bench was on the field at the 50 prior to B1 crossing the goal line!

Hey, gives me a chance to not make that run all the way to the other end: I'll throw the flag then guard it!!!