Why the umpire should NOT signal TD

[MJT]

The reason many officials think the umpire should give the TD signal was evident in the Minnesota bowl game today. The ball did cross the goal line, but was his knee down? When the umpire goes up with the TD call, the wings cannot say, “yes, but his knee was down before the ball crossed.” If the umpire “punches” it in, and the wings signal, one of them can come in and say, “his knee was down definitely before the ball got to the EZ.” If the umpire signals, it is done, and that is where the problem can arise. I was surprised to see him go up, cuz almost every crew I know of, or have heard of will “never” have the umpire give the signal, for a few reasons, but this being the biggest one. Don’t most conferences as a standard mechanic that the umpire will NOT signal? I know in the NAIA they will not. What about other college conferences you are aware of?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MJT
When the umpire goes up with the TD call, the wings cannot say, “yes, but his knee was down before the ball crossed.”

Why can't they?

How is it any different from one wing signaling TD but the other comes in and says, "No, you couldn't see that his knee was down. That's why I didn't signal."? How is it any different?

What happens if the U "punches it in," one wing doesn't see the knee down, signals TD, and the other wing comes in and says "His knee was down.

[PSU213]

Just for the record, I am against the ump giving the TD signal in most cases.

However, just because the U signals the TD, that does not mean it is set in stone. Yes, it looks really, really bad to wave it off, and you have a whole lot of explaining to do, but you can always rule him down afterward. That being said, it does not look any better if one wing signals TD, and the other does not because the runner's knee was down.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PSU213
Just for the record, I am against the ump giving the TD signal in most cases.

However, just because the U signals the TD, that does not mean it is set in stone. Yes, it looks really, really bad to wave it off, and you have a whole lot of explaining to do, but you can always rule him down afterward. That being said, it does not look any better if one wing signals TD, and the other does not because the runner's knee was down.

Those are my points exactly, PSU213. I agree with you all the way around.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


Why can't they?

Because it looks really, really bad when they are wrong.

Peace

[MJT]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Those are my points exactly, PSU213. I agree with you all the way around.

Sure, you CAN change it, but why not have a signal so this problem does NOT arise. Have the ump punch it in. If one wing goes up, the other can EASILY see that and stop his "he is down" signalling and there will be MUCH less trouble and will not look near as bad. This is simply what most crews do to eliminate a potential problem.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MJT
Sure, you CAN change it, but why not have a signal so this problem does NOT arise. Have the ump punch it in. If one wing goes up, the other can EASILY see that and stop his "he is down" signalling and there will be MUCH less trouble and will not look near as bad. This is simply what most crews do to eliminate a potential problem.

So you are advocating that even though one wing sees that the knee is down, he should ignore it if the opposite wing signals TD?

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Because it looks really, really bad when they are wrong.

Peace

And because they simply don't have ANY angle on the goal line.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
So you are advocating that even though one wing sees that the knee is down, he should ignore it if the opposite wing signals TD?

Tony,

The wings should not be in a hurry to signal TD in the first place. If the ball did not go in on their side or in plane view, you do not do anything. All you have to do is make a little eye contact with the wing before you signal. You can wait several seconds before signaling a TD. The only time this is an issue is when a wing is too much in a hurry. But the Umpire is not in any position to signal anything. They can help, but they have no real angle to make a determination.

Peace

[Texoma_LJ]

There are occasions that neither the H or LJ could see into the interior of the line especially on a QB sneak type play. On our crew, the U will give a thumbs up if he believes the ball has crossed the goal line, the H and myself will run in and verbally confer... that the player was or was not down prior to crossing the line. Once we communicate what we saw, we will then signal TD or mark the ball. This ensures that we get imput from everyone prior to making a call. We began this process after reading this thread previously on the forum, and I can say it worked well for us this season. When we go back to the sidelines it seems the coach is mauch happier to hear that we discussed the call quickly, to ensure it was the right call.

Previously the U would signal TD and on more than one occasion the Coach would subtly lend his opinion about the U being able to see both the ball and player when crossing the goal line. The comment often being.. thats not his call to make.

[Edited by Texoma_lj on Jan 1st, 2005 at 01:44 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

And because they simply don't have ANY angle on the goal line.

Read the entire post, Rich. I wasn't asking why they can't signal? I asked why the call can't be changed if someone signals incorrectly.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The wings should not be in a hurry to signal TD in the first place. If the ball did not go in on their side or in plane view, you do not do anything. All you have to do is make a little eye contact with the wing before you signal. You can wait several seconds before signaling a TD. The only time this is an issue is when a wing is too much in a hurry. But the Umpire is not in any position to signal anything. They can help, but they have no real angle to make a determination.

Jeff, there's nothing you said that I don't already know or don't agree with. But your comments have nothing to do with what I was asking. I'm simply asking MJT if he's advocating that a knee down be ignored by one wing if the other wing has signaled TD.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Read the entire post, Rich. I wasn't asking why they can't signal? I asked why the call can't be changed if someone signals incorrectly.

I think Rich is saying that you should not find yourself in that situation. It looks really bad to have to change a call when the Umpire does not have an angle. Let the wings do their job. You can change a call if you have made an incorrect one. But why would you want to do that in the first place?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by MJT

Sure, you CAN change it, but why not have a signal so this problem does NOT arise. Have the ump punch it in. If one wing goes up, the other can EASILY see that and stop his "he is down" signalling and there will be MUCH less trouble and will not look near as bad. This is simply what most crews do to eliminate a potential problem.

I totally agree that in the vast majority of situations, the U should not signal the TD, and the crew should have a signal from the U to the wings to indicate the ball crossed the plane. All I'm saying is that, even if it lookes really REALLY bad, the U's singal can be "waved off."

And also, I agree with BktBallRef that a wing should not ignore the fact that the runner was down if he indeed knows (not thinks, or is almost certain) he was down. On the other hand, the other wing should not signal TD unless he knows for a fact that the ball crossed the plane of the GL before the runner's knee was down.

[MJT]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

So you are advocating that even though one wing sees that the knee is down, he should ignore it if the opposite wing signals TD?

I have been out of town so I could not reply sooner. No, I am not saying if one sees a knee down he should ignore the other wing who goes up with TD signal. That would be wrong! The wings should comunicate as well on a situation like this before going up. They should be coming in at the end of the play and communicate before going up.

We have talked about this on our crew, and I am copying Texoma_LJ post above to review how we will handle these situations. We are similar to what Texoma_LJ does and we will solidify what we do with discussions from this post.