Stump the chump - roughing the passer

[MJT]

1. 2nd-20 at A’s 20. QB A-10 completes pass to A-83 who runs to A’s 35 where he fumbles. B-71 picks up the fumble at A’40 and returns it to A’s 5 where he fumbles and A-63 falls on the ball at A’s 1 yard line. There was roughing the passer on the play. What do you got?

2. Same scenario but after A-83’s fumble at A’s 35 B-71 falls on the ball at A’s 40? There is again roughing the passer on the play.

3. 2nd-20 at A’s 20. QB A-10 completes pass to A-83 at A’s 15 where he is immediately tackled. There was rouging the passer on the play.

4. 3rd-goal at B’s 9. A-10 completes pass to A-83 who is downed at B’s 6. There is roughing the passer on the play. After the play A-52 punches B-71.

I will post my answers tomorrow night.

[ref18]

Now, first of all I don't have my book here, so I'm doing this from memory, so some of it might be wrong, if any other Canadian ref would like to correct me, please feel free.

1. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

2. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

3. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

4. Now this is where it gets hard. The Roughing the Passer, is a 15 yard Unnecessary Roughness penalty and the punch is a 25 yard rough play disqualification. This one I'm not too sure of, but I say march 10 yards back of the PLS, so A has 3rd-Goal from the B-19.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MJT
1. 2nd-20 at A’s 20. QB A-10 completes pass to A-83 who runs to A’s 35 where he fumbles. B-71 picks up the fumble at A’40 and returns it to A’s 5 where he fumbles and A-63 falls on the ball at A’s 1 yard line. There was roughing the passer on the play. What do you got?

Options presented to Team A:
Results of play: A's ball 1/10 at A-1 Yard line.
Take Penalty: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down, thus A's ball 1/10 from the A-35.

Note: Because of the change of possession, we won't use the special enforcement provisions of the roughing the passer rule.

Originally posted by MJT
2. Same scenario but after A-83’s fumble at A’s 35 B-71 falls on the ball at A’s 40? There is again roughing the passer on the play.

Options presented to Team A:
Results of play: B's ball 1/10 at B'sA's 40 Yard line.
Take Penalty: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down, thus A's ball 1/10 from the A-35.

Note: Again, because of the change of possession, we won't use the special enforcement provisions of the roughing the passer rule.

Originally posted by MJT
3. 2nd-20 at A’s 20. QB A-10 completes pass to A-83 at A’s 15 where he is immediately tackled. There was rouging the passer on the play.

Options for team A:
Results of play: A's ball 3/25 at the A-15.
Penalty Option: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down. (A's ball 1/10 at the A-35.)

NOTE: Because the run ended behind the neutral zone, this is penalized from the previous spot.

Originally posted by MJT
4. 3rd-goal at B’s 9. A-10 completes pass to A-83 who is downed at B’s 6. There is roughing the passer on the play. After the play A-52 punches B-71.

Both fouls will be penalized. First we will deal with the live ball foul. A's options are (1) Decline: 4/G from the B-6. (2) Accept, 1/G from the B-3 because this fouls IS subject to the special enforcement provision of the roughing the passer rule. It is enforced from the end of the run after the catch.

Next we deal with the foul by A. It will be A's ball 1/10 at the A-18. Chains are NOT set until all fouls are administered.


One I've added for good measure
A's ball 3/20 at the A-10. A1 completes a pass to A2 at the A-20. During the pass, B1 is flagged for roughing the passer. A2 fumbles the ball at the A-25. A3 picks up the ball and runs to the A-35 where he fumbles the ball. The ball goes out of bounds at the A-40.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Now, first of all I don't have my book here, so I'm doing this from memory, so some of it might be wrong, if any other Canadian ref would like to correct me, please feel free.

1. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

2. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

3. A's 1st-10 from the A-35

4. Now this is where it gets hard. The Roughing the Passer, is a 15 yard Unnecessary Roughness penalty and the punch is a 25 yard rough play disqualification. This one I'm not too sure of, but I say march 10 yards back of the PLS, so A has 3rd-Goal from the B-19.

Julian, you forgot the lightbulb icon!!

1, 2 & 3 are correct: 15 + 1D for UR applied from the PLS (or PBD which won't happen).

3. I think the philosophy regarding dead ball fouls is that you apply live ball fouls first, then dead ball fouls, and you do not "saw them off," or "apply the differences".

The UR will go half the distance to the 3, plus a first down. Then go back 25 for the RP. 1D/10 @ B-28.

[ref18]

That was the other option in my head, those dual foul situations are hard to remember. Although would that be a dual foul situation?? Because the second foul happened after the play, I guess it would no longer be a dual foul situation.

I guess I've got a few more years to learn this stuff before I put on the white hat.

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears

Options presented to Team A:
Results of play: A's ball 1/10 at A-1 Yard line.
Take Penalty: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down, thus A's ball 1/10 from the A-35.

Note: Because of the change of possession, we won't use the special enforcement provisions of the roughing the passer rule.

Options presented to Team A:
Results of play: B's ball 1/10 at B'sA's 40 Yard line.
Take Penalty: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down, thus A's ball 1/10 from the A-35.

Note: Again, because of the change of possession, we won't use the special enforcement provisions of the roughing the passer rule.

Options for team A:
Results of play: A's ball 3/25 at the A-15.
Penalty Option: 15 yards from previous spot and automatic 1st down. (A's ball 1/10 at the A-35.)

NOTE: Because the run ended behind the neutral zone, this is penalized from the previous spot.

Both fouls will be penalized. First we will deal with the live ball foul. A's options are (1) Decline: 4/G from the B-6. (2) Accept, 1/G from the B-3 because this fouls IS subject to the special enforcement provision of the roughing the passer rule. It is enforced from the end of the run after the catch.

Next we deal with the foul by A. It will be A's ball 1/10 at the A-18. Chains are NOT set until all fouls are administered.


One I've added for good measure
A's ball 3/20 at the A-10. A1 completes a pass to A2 at the A-20. During the pass, B1 is flagged for roughing the passer. A2 fumbles the ball at the A-25. A3 picks up the ball and runs to the A-35 where he fumbles the ball. The ball goes out of bounds at the A-40.

Great, now I can give an answer since Mike added a new twist to my question. In this twist it would be A's ball at the 50 cuz the 15 yard RTP would be enforced from the end of the last run, which is the spot of the 2nd fumble, A's 35.

[James Neil]

Without looking at the other answers I’ll give my rulings. I’m going to try these without benefit of taking a lot of time and looking into the book. Game situation real time like. I hope I don't screw it up too much




I’m too ashamed to leave my answers. I kicked the hell out of my rulings. Good job Mike. I forgot all about there being no exception to the roughing foul if there’s a COP. I better get back into the book



[Edited by James Neil on Dec 1st, 2004 at 01:04 PM]

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
That was the other option in my head, those dual foul situations are hard to remember. Although would that be a dual foul situation?? Because the second foul happened after the play, I guess it would no longer be a dual foul situation.

I guess I've got a few more years to learn this stuff before I put on the white hat.

I had a similar sitch when I WH'd at the NCB.

Do you recall the situation?

I don't remember who was on offense, but we were at the end away from the fancy new scoreboard that takes a degree to operate.

1D/10 from the B-15...

Play goes to the right side hash (near you), and there is a flag at the end of play for piling on by team B, thrown by HL. U comes in and tells me he has holding by team A.

Piling on by definition is a dead ball foul. So apply the holding first. B accepts of course to go back to the 25. Then go half-the-distance + 1D for the UR. Result: 1D/10 @ 12.5. They gained 2.5 yards on the play.

This is a good example of two fouls that DOES NOT follow the dual-foul rule "to the t". There is a case book sitch that outlines a similar play.

[ref18]

Of course I remember that, Marc and I were trying to guess how it would be applied.

We weren't sure what you did, so I was going to ask you afterwards, but I forgot.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Of course I remember that, Marc and I were trying to guess how it would be applied.

We weren't sure what you did, so I was going to ask you afterwards, but I forgot.

I'll find the case book play for you soon... I don't have it with me right now.

[ref18]

Don't worry, I went and looked it up, Rule 8 1-4-5.

"Not a dual penalty since piling on was a dead ball foul."

It makes sense.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Don't worry, I went and looked it up, Rule 8 1-4-5.

"Not a dual penalty since piling on was a dead ball foul."

It makes sense.

And who says understanding the white book is hard?

It also says in the dual foul section that a dual foul is when a foul by each team occurs during a play. When a guy gets tackled, the play is over. If you then have a piling on, it is not during the play. So, no dual foul.

Now, having siad all this: I argue that piling is on a continuing action foul, and although it occurs during a dead ball, it should be treated as a live ball foul.

What do you think?

[ref18]

I agree with that. It's a late tackle on the ball. In the tacklers head it was more than likely a live ball action, therefore I agree it should be penalized as a UR that occured when the ball is live. Now the only thing that sort of goes against that is what if it was after 3rd down with yards not gained. The continuity of downs has been interupted, it is team B's ball, but they commit a late hit, are we then going to give the ball back to team A, for a foul that occured after the ball was dead???

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
I agree with that. It's a late tackle on the ball. In the tacklers head it was more than likely a live ball action, therefore I agree it should be penalized as a UR that occured when the ball is live. Now the only thing that sort of goes against that is what if it was after 3rd down with yards not gained. The continuity of downs has been interupted, it is team B's ball, but they commit a late hit, are we then going to give the ball back to team A, for a foul that occured after the ball was dead???

Good point. Very good point actually.

Ok, here's my reasoning: last play of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarter, and 4th quarter if the game is currently tied, A is tackled at the R-35. If a piling on is called, then A must administer this foul in the following quarter (or OT). Ok fine: they are kick off 15 years up or receive the ball 15 years in their favour. BUT: they might rather choose to apply it in *that* quarter, because 15 from the R-35 is the R-20 - perfect for a field goal attempt for 3 points.

So......... amend the piling on application to be a continuous act foul and if occurs during the last play of a quarter, the quarter may be extended for 1 play after the penalty application. If it is not the last play of the quarter, and the play happens after yards were not gained, there is still a CoP.

I know it's a handful...

[ref18]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Good point. Very good point actually.

Ok, here's my reasoning: last play of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarter, and 4th quarter if the game is currently tied, A is tackled at the R-35. If a piling on is called, then A must administer this foul in the following quarter (or OT). Ok fine: they are kick off 15 years up or receive the ball 15 years in their favour. BUT: they might rather choose to apply it in *that* quarter, because 15 from the R-35 is the R-20 - perfect for a field goal attempt for 3 points.

So......... amend the piling on application to be a continuous act foul and if occurs during the last play of a quarter, the quarter may be extended for 1 play after the penalty application. If it is not the last play of the quarter, and the play happens after yards were not gained, there is still a CoP.

I know it's a handful...

Why don't we amend the rules to say that any foul which occurs after the ball is dead in the last play of the quarter but before the referee waves his flag around is applied as if it happened during the quarter or the option to apply it in the subsequent quarter, whichever is most advantageous to the team that was offended. Thereby allowing the one last play to kick a field goal or punt it through the endzone. Or allowing you to have the wind if you didn't have it on the previous play.

Does this make sense, or did I start to ramble??