timing issue...

[rdfox]

Great discussion, but the clock has to start on the snap.

You have to ask yourself, why did the clock stop? If the answer was because of the penalty, then you start it on the ready. If it was stopped because of the result of the play, then it starts on the snap.

Another example...a running play for a TD, but the offense held during the play. The clock stopped because of the ball crossing the goal line. You bring the ball back, replay the down, and start the clock on the snap because it was not the penalty that stopped it.

[kdf5]

I don't know about you guys but I always stop the clock after an INT. 3-4-2 says you start on the ready unless the action that causes the down to end doesn't also stop the clock.

The converse is also true and that is that you start on the snap when the action that caused the down to end does stop the clock. B wasn't awarded a new series, but that's not the point. The INT stops the clock, always.

[jack015]

Originally posted by kdf5
I don't know about you guys but I always stop the clock after an INT. 3-4-2 says you start on the ready unless the action that causes the down to end doesn't also stop the clock.

The converse is also true and that is that you start on the snap when the action that caused the down to end does stop the clock. B wasn't awarded a new series, but that's not the point. The INT stops the clock, always.

99% of the time you would start the clock on the snap after an INT (ball dead inbounds), but not because of the INT. You are starting on the snap because 99% of the time you award a new series to B after the INT. Not so in this play. An INT is not one of the reasons given in rule 3 to start the clock on the snap.

In this play, you have an administrative stoppage of the clock to enforce the foul, not to award B a new series. What you have here is an administrative stoppage to enforce a foul and award A a new series, therfore start on the ready.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by jack015

99% of the time you would start the clock on the snap after an INT (ball dead inbounds), but not because of the INT. You are starting on the snap because 99% of the time you award a new series to B after the INT. Not so in this play. An INT is not one of the reasons given in rule 3 to start the clock on the snap.

In this play, you have an administrative stoppage of the clock to enforce the foul, not to award B a new series. What you have here is an administrative stoppage to enforce a foul and award A a new series, therfore start on the ready.

Read the rule. Part 3. of the rule says you start on the ready except when the action that caused the down to end (being tackled after an INT) doesn't also stop the clock, Do you stop the clock after an INT? Part 3. is a catch all for various situations that either do or don't stop the clock.

What do you do after an incomplete pass? You start on the snap, right? So does the action that ends the down (an incompletion) also cause the clock to stop? If that's the case then the INT in this play does the same thing to the clock as an incomplete pass. You start on the snap. A new series for B or not has absolutely nothing to do with this play because it's what comes after or doesn't come after stopping the clock. It's all about what stops the clock.

[mikesears]

AGREE with those who say ON THE READY. Read what Bob M posted. A new series is awarded only after considering any act that occured DURING the down....

Clock starts on the snap only if B is awarded a new series (and this can only occur after we consider any act that occured during the down).

In the play in question, B was NOT awarded a new series. Yes they intercepted the ball and WOULD have had a new series. But they are not AWARDED a new series because they fouled during the down nulifying the new series they would have gotten.

Those of you who are quoting Rule 3-4-2b-3 ("The action that causes the down to end did not also cause the clock to stop") are forgetting how a down ends. A down ends when the ball becomes dead. In this play, how did the ball become dead? A player was tackled inbounds. The interception does not cause the ball to become dead. The change of possession is simply an official's timeout and NOT what caused the down to end.




[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 08:29 AM]

[kdf5]

Originally posted by mikesears

AGREE with Tom and Bob. Start on the ready for play. Read what Bob M posted. A new series is awarded only after considering any act that occured DURING the down....

Clock stars on the snap only if B is awarded a new series (and this can only occur after we consider any act that occured during the down).

In the play in question, B was NOT awarded a new series. Yes they intercepted the ball and WOULD have had a new series. But they are not AWARDED a new series because they fouled during the down nulifying the new series they would have gotten.

Fellas, the rule asks what action STOPS THE CLOCK? What stops the clock in this play? The fact that there was an interception stops the clock. That's as far as you need to go to determine snap or ready by the rule.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by kdf5

Fellas, the rule asks what action STOPS THE CLOCK? What stops the clock in this play? The fact that there was an interception stops the clock. That's as far as you need to go to determine snap or ready by the rule.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. It IS NOT "what stops the clock" that determines when we start it again. It is what causes the down to end that determines when we start the clock. The down doesn't end when the ball is intercepted. It ends when the ball becomes dead. If dead inbounds, we simply have an official's timeout. Then we have to ask if B is awarded a new series. Was B given a new series? Nope (unless A declines the penalty).


[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 08:37 AM]

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For those saying to start the clock on the snap, how would you handle the clock on this play? PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

[jack015]

By my count, 4 of us think snap and 7 of us think ready.

JRut, where are you? I know that all of us would like your take on this subject.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: For those saying to start the clock on the snap, how would you handle the clock on this play? PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

Excellent question to make the point. Good job Bob.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: For those saying to start the clock on the snap, how would you handle the clock on this play? PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

What if A ran out of bounds? Does the clock stop when he runs out of bounds? What if A throws an interception? Does the clock stop following an interception? What if A throws an incompletion? Does the clock stop following and incompletion? By you ready for play advocates you would start the clock on the ready after administering a penalty following an incompete pass. Is that how you do that?

3-4-2b. says (the clock starts on the ready) following ANY foul, with the stipulation ("provided") that in either part a. or part b:
The action that caused the down to end (did the penalty cause the down to end? Fundamental III. 2. says no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead, so what action caused the ball to become dead? B was tackled after INTERCEPTING A's pass, right?) doesn't also cause the clock to be stopped. Does an interception cause the clock to be stopped? Why are you guys treating stopping the clock after an interception different than stopping the clock after an incompletion. The rule asks "what stopped the clock"? A being tackled inbounds doesn't stop the clock. The clock stoppage to administer the penalty is already provided for in the rule, so. what if A fouls (the rule says ANY foul) during an incomplete pass? Bob, when would you start the clock in that scene?

OK. Now I'm really confused. Since the acceptance of the penalty negated the change of possession, do we say we have a completed pass (thus, starting the clock on the RFP), or an incomplete pass (thus, starting the clock on the snap)?

Serg

[kdf5]

Originally posted by VaASAump
OK. Now I'm really confused. Since the acceptance of the penalty negated the change of possession, do we say we have a completed pass (thus, starting the clock on the RFP), or an incomplete pass (thus, starting the clock on the snap)?

Serg

We have an interception. Please give me a one word answer to this question: Do you stop the clock after an interception?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by kdf5

We have an interception. Please give me a one word answer to this question: Do you stop the clock after an interception?

You are getting to hung up on the phrase, "The action that causes the down to end did not also stop the clock".

After a change of possession, we simply have an officials timeout. The clock starts on the ready after an official's timeout UNLESS something else happened to stop the clock. Runner out of bounds, incomplete pass, ball out bounds, etc.

An officials' timeout is NEVER reason enough to start on the snap UNLESS B is awarded a new series or EITHER team is awarded a new series following a legal kick play.





[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 09:42 AM]

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by kdf5

What if A ran out of bounds? Does the clock stop when he runs out of bounds? What if A throws an interception? Does the clock stop following an interception? What if A throws an incompletion? Does the clock stop following and incompletion? By you ready for play advocates you would start the clock on the ready after administering a penalty following an incompete pass. Is that how you do that?

3-4-2b. says (the clock starts on the ready) following ANY foul, with the stipulation ("provided") that in either part a. or part b:
The action that caused the down to end (did the penalty cause the down to end? Fundamental III. 2. says no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead, so what action caused the ball to become dead? B was tackled after INTERCEPTING A's pass, right?) doesn't also cause the clock to be stopped. Does an interception cause the clock to be stopped? Why are you guys treating stopping the clock after an interception different than stopping the clock after an incompletion. The rule asks "what stopped the clock"? A being tackled inbounds doesn't stop the clock. The clock stoppage to administer the penalty is already provided for in the rule, so. what if A fouls (the rule says ANY foul) during an incomplete pass? Bob, when would you start the clock in that scene?

REPLY: I'll be glad to answer your questions...after you answer mine In the play I posted, when would you start the clock?