End of Game, Nose Swats at Snap

[mcrowder]

DeR - the part that you're contradicting yourself on is where you say the defense may move at the start of the snap, but for some reason can't contact the ball until the end of the snap.

The proof that your interp is not accepted is the fact that this is listed EVERYwhere as a difference between FED and NCAA - this is specifically mentioned as legal in FED.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
The ball becomes live with the snap. The snap starts the second the ball is moved to make a snap. It only becomes a dead ball illegal snap (false start)if the ball is not released by the center.

So if the ball is not released by the center, then the ball never becomes live? The defense swatting the ball from the center hands, is this action considered "releasing the ball"? No, the center never released the ball--it was swatted from his hands therefore you have a dead ball situation. Now what do you do???? I really am trying to understand the logic in this being a legal play--help me!

[mcrowder]

Nowhere does it say the release must be voluntary. If he drops it, the play is live, right? Same as the swat.

The reason you don't see this often is that it requires a lot of precision by the NT. If he moves early, it's offside - if he moves late, he's missed and is not in position to protect himself from a block.

But it IS legal (in FED).

[Jaysef]

We had a Varsity team inform us of a gadget play where the center maintains possession after snapping to the QBs hands, placing it back on the turf and running with the ball. I told Coach to be sure R is informed when they were going to use this, and they did about 3 times. Was I in error letting this happen? Reading the previous threads, do I understand the ball to be live when the snap is complete (possesed by another A player, or on the ground?)

2nd YrUmp

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Nowhere does it say the release must be voluntary. If he drops it, the play is live, right? Same as the swat.

The reason you don't see this often is that it requires a lot of precision by the NT. If he moves early, it's offside - if he moves late, he's missed and is not in position to protect himself from a block.

But it IS legal (in FED).

The key word in what you said is "he drops it"! There is a distinct difference from releasing the ball and having it swatted or swiped from your hand(s). No way is this a legal play. You still didn't answer my question, say the Nose is swift and has a lot of precision and actually swipes the ball from the center hands. Is it a live ball or dead ball and what is the call or non call? Please explain.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by Jaysef
We had a Varsity team inform us of a gadget play where the center maintains possession after snapping to the QBs hands, placing it back on the turf and running with the ball. I told Coach to be sure R is informed when they were going to use this, and they did about 3 times. Was I in error letting this happen? Reading the previous threads, do I understand the ball to be live when the snap is complete (possesed by another A player, or on the ground?)

2nd YrUmp

That is correct. The ball must be released by the center. In the scenario you mentioned, I have a false start if the center does not release the ball. Merely touching the hands of the QB is not enough--the ball must be released!

[Snake~eyes]

I don't see why you are conitnuing this conversation with Derrock, just ask him to post the rules that say this illegal, or atleast give us an article and section from the rulebook. Derrock, you are aruging a point without any proof.

[Warrenkicker]

We had a player at a varsity game earlier this season come over and ask us about swatting the ball out of the snapper's hands on a long snap. This long snapper would load-up on his snap and thus really wasn't a legal snap as he would pick the ball up slightly and move it forward a little before his backward motion. We said that nothing stopped him from trying as long as he didn't encroach.

They never tried to slap the ball so we didn't have to rule on if we should have had a dead-ball foul or just a loose ball. So I would say that when a player is able to knock the ball out of the snapper's hands that it is a legal play by the defense but can be an illegal snap if it didn't meet all of those requirements.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
We had a player at a varsity game earlier this season come over and ask us about swatting the ball out of the snapper's hands on a long snap. This long snapper would load-up on his snap and thus really wasn't a legal snap as he would pick the ball up slightly and move it forward a little before his backward motion. We said that nothing stopped him from trying as long as he didn't encroach.

They never tried to slap the ball so we didn't have to rule on if we should have had a dead-ball foul or just a loose ball. So I would say that when a player is able to knock the ball out of the snapper's hands that it is a legal play by the defense but can be an illegal snap if it didn't meet all of those requirements.

So what would you have had if you had to rule on this play? Is it a dead ball or live ball? Simply put I am curious to know what you will do if this happened in a game? Would you rule it a muff, fumble, delay of game, encroachment, what????

[mcrowder]

I can't even imagine what rule I would cite if I wanted to call this a penalty or a dead-ball of any sort. This is, of course, a live ball, and likely simply a loose ball. If Super-Noseguard actually manages to both A) not encroach, and B) take the ball from the center, it's his ball. Don't see why you would rule differently.

DeR - please consider for a moment that you are the only official on the planet trying to call this a deadball foul on the defense, and your decision to do so flies in the face of numerous citings of FED/NCAA differences that includes statements that swatting the ball from the center is legal in FED.

Again - can you post a rule that the noseguard is violating in this case? Until that point, you really have no leg to stand on.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I can't even imagine what rule I would cite if I wanted to call this a penalty or a dead-ball of any sort. This is, of course, a live ball, and likely simply a loose ball. If Super-Noseguard actually manages to both A) not encroach, and B) take the ball from the center, it's his ball. Don't see why you would rule differently.

DeR - please consider for a moment that you are the only official on the planet trying to call this a deadball foul on the defense, and your decision to do so flies in the face of numerous citings of FED/NCAA differences that includes statements that swatting the ball from the center is legal in FED.

Again - can you post a rule that the noseguard is violating in this case? Until that point, you really have no leg to stand on.

How can it be a live ball if the center never releases it? Maybe this is where I'm missing it. Are you saying swatting the ball is the same as releasing the ball? If you are, then I don't see how swatting or swiping the ball from the center's hand(s) can be considered the same as releasing it. I am sorry to sound so stubborn about this rule, but it has to make sense to me in order for me to understand it.

You ask me to post a rule. I posted at least 3 rules that would apply to this case but lets examine the Snap rule - Section 38, Art. 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Interpretation: If the Nose or anybody swipes the ball from the snapper hand(s), we don't even have a legal snap. According to Sec 38, Art 2 the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper "and" touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Now if this rule is not clear enough, I really don't know what more I can say to convince anyone otherwise.

[mcrowder]

You make no sense. A ball is live when the snap begins - this is when other players are allowed to enter the neutral zone.

Thanks for the definition of a snap. Now... what rule are you using to say the defense cannot swat at the snap? You seem to be implying that the defense is partially responsible for ensuring that the snap becomes legal. No - this is the offense's responsibility. There's no justification for holding defense responsible for any aspect of the snap.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by Derock2004

So what would you have had if you had to rule on this play? Is it a dead ball or live ball? Simply put I am curious to know what you will do if this happened in a game? Would you rule it a muff, fumble, delay of game, encroachment, what????

I think we would have ruled it to be an illegal snap because that is supported by rule. When the snapper moves the ball forward at the beginning of the snap to "wind-up" and then snap it backwards it is an illegal snap. How often have any of you seen this and not called it?

As for the ball being slapped out by NG I still say it is legal. You have actually quoted the exact rules which tell you it is legal.

Here is your situation. A is ready for the snap. QB is under center. Center goes to snap the ball but it slips out of his hand (tall grass, clump of mud, sweaty hand,...), never gets off of the ground, and rolls to the FB. Is this an illegal snap?

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by mcrowder
You make no sense. A ball is live when the snap begins - this is when other players are allowed to enter the neutral zone.

Thanks for the definition of a snap. Now... what rule are you using to say the defense cannot swat at the snap? You seem to be implying that the defense is partially responsible for ensuring that the snap becomes legal. No - this is the offense's responsibility. There's no justification for holding defense responsible for any aspect of the snap.

A ball is NOT live when the snap begins. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment.
Interpretation: If this were true, then all the snapper would have to do is move the ball and it becomes live--not true. The ball does not become a live ball until a legal snap is executed which means the ball must leave the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground.

I am not implying that the defense is responsible for ensuring that the snap becomes legal. I am merely saying the defense can NOT interfere with the legal snapping of the ball. I am not quoting a rule here but out of fairness to the snapper and by the definition of a Snap, how can a legal snap be executed if the defense swipes the ball from his hand(s)? Out of good sportsmanship and fair play, don't you think the offense should at least be allowed to put the ball in play?

[Derock2004]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warrenkicker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock2004
[B]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker

Here is your situation. A is ready for the snap. QB is under center. Center goes to snap the ball but it slips out of his hand (tall grass, clump of mud, sweaty hand,...), never gets off of the ground, and rolls to the FB. Is this an illegal snap?

In this situation, the ball moves backward leaving the snapper hands and its rolling on the ground...the snap is legal! Furthermore, if tall grass and clumps of mud are causing snap problems, then I would try to spot the ball in an area where this will not cause a problem in snapping the ball. I would also suggest to the field monitor to cover the dirt with grass and cut the grass prior to games, if possible. The only thing I could do about the sweaty hands is suggest the snapper use a towel or gloves for his hands. All of these problems with the snap you mention are caused by nature or the snapper himself. This is not the same as the defense swatting at the ball.