Rules on hitter center?

[Jim S]

Had a great game two saturdays ago. 7-7 at the end of Reg. Wound up 13-7 in OT.
There were a number of fouls on both teams but pretty much evened out although I did call a TD back (by the winning team) on a ply where the coach was already yelling at the kid before the flag hit the ground.
After the game we had one of those of whom you speak yelling on us for "not letting them play" and "calling all those penalties".
I would love once just to tell someone like that that "those fouls wern't on the list of 'don't call these tonight' that the coaches gave us before the game"
Well maybe just before I retire. Along with the idea of calling one game strictly by the rules.......

[SoGARef]

Dirk,
I'll answer your questions with this caveat, my answers are only in reference to NFHS rules and may be incorrect in terms of your particular youth league. Also, I am not going to issue any comments as to the officials you had working your game as I was not there to observe and it is unethical.

1. 1st I have no idea where that rule is? Any help?

There is no rule that says the snapper cannot be contacted when the QB takes a knee. The rule that is in place is for the protection of the snapper when the offense is in a scrimmage kick formation with one player at least 7 yards deep and there is no one in place to take a direct hand to hand snap from the snapper. It is possible that a personal foul/late hit could be called if the defense hit the snapper after the play became dead. Rule is 9-4-5.

2. said free blocking zone was 4 yds deep and 7 wide

The free blocking zone is 3 yards deep extending beyond and behind the neutral zone. Hence, it is 6 yards deep (lengthwise). It is 4 yards extending towards each sideline from the ball. Hence, it is 8 yards wide (laterally). The zone exists only from the snap and until the ball has left the zone. Rule is 2-17-1.

3. holding on defense was 5 yd penalty while it was 10 on Offense

All holding fouls are 10 yard fouls for both the defense and offense. Offense is rule 9-2-1c. Defense is rule 9-2-3c.

4. we could not have MORE than 7 on the LOS

The minimum number of players allowed on the line is 7. The maximum number would be 10 as by rule you must have someone in the backfield to receive the snap. The rule is 7-2-5a.

5. huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants - not a timeout near the coaches box, the other team huddled 14-16 players and would break the huddle and the extra players would run off the field- many times 1 or 2 were still on field as the snap occured- no flag,

This year a new rule was established which allows the coaches, attendants and all team members to gather within 5 yards of the sideline directly infront of the team box during timeouts. The old rule still exists that only one coach and three attendants may come to a huddle with 11 players between the hash marks. Rule is 2-6-2a. There is no rule in NFHS about breaking the huddle with more than 11 players.

The rule is that a replaced player must immediately leave the field. This is usually considered to be between 3 to 5 seconds after notification. This is the official HFHS interpretation. The rule is 2-30-15.

One can be a technical official and call it by the book or one can be a good official and call it by the tenor of the game. I say that because if you have replaced players who are attempted to leave the field when the ball is snapped and they are within a few yards of the sideline then there is no reason to flag it. The key to a good or great official is the one who recognizes the unfair advantage and calls it appropriately. If the players were standing on field and not attempting to leave at the snap then it should be flagged. There is really no rule to this other than good game sense.

6. coaches could go out on field to give play calls to the players - again no time out called

During the dead ball period between the end of a play and the marking of ready for play I personally have no problem with a coach stepping on the field for a few yards to instruct or give the play to a player. Again, this falls under the unfair advantage aspect. Is the team gaining an unfair advantage by the coach stepping on the field during a dead ball to give a player the next play and then stepping off the field before the next snap? I don't think so. Now what about the coach who doesn't step off the field and the ball is snapped. I have a problem with this and it is a safety issue. I have seen in the past many collisions between wing officials and coaches on the field in which someone was hurt.

I hope that I have answered your questions about rules to your satisfaction. I would also recommend that you have a discussion with someone who is in charge with the youth league about you concerns.

[Dirk]

I understand it is never a perfect game. But we teach the kids to do their best everytime. We know they will make mistakes and what we want them to do is learn from it. It is not too much to ask the same from the officials.

Are officials are all members in good standing with one of the associations that judge HS games. We do get many untested and lower experienced refs, but generally get at least 1 veteran official. We are suppose to get a review form from them, strangely they forgot it, the coaches and players get reviewd by the officials as well. Our playoff qualifier is first based on these reviews mainly rooted in sportmanship and then go to the records. I like this system and what its goal is. If our coaches were to abuse (verbally) or teach and promote illegal and unsafe techniques, these reviews would highlight it and could draw a league suspension after the review process on a bad review. The only consequence of the poor ref job is the following year's contract. This is disappointing. There should be some sort of review and consequence for a poor job. Not neccessarily monatary. I take pride in my job and in my coaching. I have no son in the program.

And on teaching kids about fighting through diversity, how do you think we won the game. The kids never quit or gave in. That is the best part of this particular game. It would have been easy for them to quit and say the refs robbed them, but they did not. They played to the end, to the best of their abilities, and in the end, it is all we as coaches, ask of our kids, in our program.

[Dirk]

Thanks SoGaRef,

That was the info I was first looking for. I was not sure if different areas of the rule book may have come into play, and confused the issue. Is sound like my major concerns are valid.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
The only consequence of the poor ref job is the following year's contract. This is disappointing. There should be some sort of review and consequence for a poor job. Not neccessarily monatary. I take pride in my job and in my coaching. I have no son in the program.

Wow, do you promise there will be consequences? Like staying home and not working these games at all. Would that be favor or a gift?

Peace

[Dirk]

Not working these games may be better than what happened. If there is no pride in doing a job to the best of ones abilities, then yes no work. Kinda like the real world, if you do not do a good job someone else will get yours. Get off the power trips. If other coaches in my organization were not treating the players with respect (which is the case at the moment- suspension occuring for lack of respect toward refs during a game) or teaching dangerous techniques, I would be raising it to our board of directors. One would think the officials might care what other members of their group are doing, and be upset if there are members not doing their best.

You guys have this stereotype of the youth coach and complain that coaches have you pegged under a stereotype. All that is accurate, but neither is the correct way to judge. It would be much better if each case were unique, but I can see sadly that is not the case. But please just continue on, attack, attack, for I am just another dumb youth coach, err whinning youth coach.

[mcrowder]

Dirk - most of the fouls you are talking about are the same fouls I ignore in most youth games (especially the under 10 games). Too many in the huddle? (Or actually, illegal sub) If we called this every time, the game would never end. The rule says the substituted player must leave "immediately", but in youth ball, that word is stretched a lot. And if the extra kids did not disrupt the play (ie, they were running off and didn't affect either A) the actual play or B) the defensive formation), I'm not calling it either.

Clipping? You actually saw clipping? I've called HS ball for a while and have yet to actually call clipping (it was called ONCE by R in a game I was in). I now assume you really meant a block in the back. I'm right with you there. I call that at youth if I see it - it's a safety issue. (If it was minor, and far from the play, it might get ignored ... but my standard there is no different at 7-8 as it is at varsity - it's gotta be VERY minor to not get a flag).

Their enforcements? Well... that sucks - sorry to hear they are employing guys that don't at least know the proper enforcements.

Our jobs at youth ball are different from our jobs at varsity. At V, you expect ALL of the kids not to break the rules, and you enforce much more strictly. At youth, our jobs are to make sure the games are officiated FAIRLY, and to limit injury-causing fouls where possible (and often - to help the coach get the kids in line. Can't tell you how many times I've leaned over my shoulder and said, "Coach - you've got 4 guys in the neutral zone", and then not called it when the play started.)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
Not working these games may be better than what happened. If there is no pride in doing a job to the best of ones abilities, then yes no work. Kinda like the real world, if you do not do a good job someone else will get yours. Get off the power trips. If other coaches in my organization were not treating the players with respect (which is the case at the moment- suspension occuring for lack of respect toward refs during a game) or teaching dangerous techniques, I would be raising it to our board of directors. One would think the officials might care what other members of their group are doing, and be upset if there are members not doing their best.

You guys have this stereotype of the youth coach and complain that coaches have you pegged under a stereotype. All that is accurate, but neither is the correct way to judge. It would be much better if each case were unique, but I can see sadly that is not the case. But please just continue on, attack, attack, for I am just another dumb youth coach, err whinning youth coach.

Dirk,

I officiate to have fun and to do the best job I can. I do not officiate to have some coach that has only coached a youth team, never attended a rules meeting, never taken a rules test, never officiated a varsity or college game, trying to tell me what the rule is based on what he saw on Sunday. Or better yet, what he heard from an announcer. If you do not want the officials working the game, then you just might get more guys that do not know what they are doing or even care. It is youth football after all and it is not the major goal of most officials to get a playoff game at the youth level. Most officials have other things to do and youth sports are an addition if they have time outside of their other activities. This is usually the place the younger and less experienced officials start their career, but soon progress to HS or college possibly. I just find coaches like you a blast to have a conversation with because you treat this level as if it would devastate the officials to not work your games. I am sure there are many here that love working youth football. But most of the veterans I know truly dislike these games and your attitude is one of the reasons.

Have a great season.

Peace

[mikesears]

Oftentimes you will find that the officials working "pee-wee" games are new officials. They aren't dumb. They simply haven't had a practical chance to apply the rules to the game yet. That's why they are working pee-wee games.

I recall my first year as an official when I was working a pee-wee game with another first year guy. I'm sure the coaches had the same impression about us

[Dirk]

JRutledge

I have been happy with the officiating in most of the games I have been involved with. This was the exception. Most of the officials have been helpful in teaching the game. But don't throw a flag at us for delay of game when we were late by 5 sec or so and then allow the other team to have longer huddles and not remove the replaced players, or allow the coaches from the other team to have a huddle on the sideline without calling a time out. Flags that are thrown for any infraction, should the HC ask who it was on, should be able to be identified, not have the official shrug his shoulders and say not sure(repeatedly throughout the game to both coaches), how the officials cannot keep track of downs is beyond me, and again not just 1 time, repeatedly. The clipping was clipping, although not intential by the other team, a trip caused it, but still a foul because of the proximity to the ballcarrier. I don't believe intent has any bearing on the foul, except spearing. We did not get our calls from the announcer, we got our calls from the officials. At one point the official asked if he should get out the rule book, we said please and gave him ours to show us the rule. He huffed away.

If officiating is so unfulfilling for so many, don't do it. If the coaches make it so unbarrable, you really should go do something else, or get some rules in the leagues to address it. But if it is too hard to call it even at the youth level, then you have no business at the HS or above level.

[mcrowder]

I would submit that sometimes it's HARDER to officiate youth ball than varsity. Because if you officiate "normally", you'd NEVER get a play off. Literally never.

So it's ok, Dirk, to you for the official to not flag your delay of game, but it's not ok to you for him to ignore players running off the side of the field that are not involved in the play? Ridiculous, and hypocritical.

I do agree with some of your comments (they should get the downs right, they should know the fouls they are calling, etc), but the rest is nonsense.

PS - clipping - did he fall on your player after being tripped (sounds like, from your description, that he did)? That's not clipping. Clipping is BLOCKING below the waist, in the back. Sounds like a no-call to me too (even at higher levels).

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Dirk, I can appreciate your frustration, but the hard reality is this: The officials who read and post on this board (many do it year-round) are completely dedicated to the avocation of officiating. They take what they do seriously. I've personally been doing it for 27 years and know that there is still more to learn. I approach every game with the same "do-your-best" attitude. I'd venture to guess that it's the same with everyone reading this post. It would be nice to think that all officials should be perfect in attitude, diligent in learning, and flawless in execution. But such thinking is "Pollyanna-ish." Frankly, and some officials are ashamed to admit it, all officials' associations include "haves" and "have-nots." Some officials are just too new and inexperienced to perform at a consistently high level. As others have said, often it is these young men and women who learn on-the-job in your youth league and others like it around the country. It's a training ground for young football officials no less than it is for young football players. Just as your young men are going to make mistakes in executing a play, these young well-meaning officials will make mistakes as well. And unfortunately, there are also other officials who may at one time have had a very positive and professional attitude, but who for some reason no longer put as much into it as they once did. They may no longer dedicate themselves to improvement or constant learning. The result, sadly, is apparent in their performance.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
If officiating is so unfulfilling for so many, don't do it. If the coaches make it so unbarrable, you really should go do something else, or get some rules in the leagues to address it. But if it is too hard to call it even at the youth level, then you have no business at the HS or above level.

It is unfulfilling at the youth level. The only thing that is good about it is the money. And if some of the leagues did not pay so well, you would never find officials. See at the HS levels and college levels the pressure goes up, but everyone is accountable. If coaches act out of line, not only can the officials handle them, so will the state. You want officials that could not give a damn (really could not give a damn) about what you think to call everything to the tee. I bet you have never gotten a play off in the subscribed 25 seconds, but you want the officials to get picky about rules you think are important. I work three sports and work year round. I have decided that I do not want to work youth sports anymore because of people like you. I would rather work a game that is in the paper or at the college level and deal with that pressure than some coach that thinks he is the next Knute Rockne coaching his "superstar kid." Guys like you totally ruin the experience at the youth level experience and leagues like yours create rules and situations that are never enforced at any other level (striper rules for example).

If you do not like the officials, find someone that cares. I know I do not give a damn about your whining behind. This is a hobby for most of us. This is not our job or our main profession. It is not important for me to make you happy. I know many officials that feel the same way and leave leagues like yours alone. Funny, you never seem to find this kind of shortage of officials for the varsity and college levels. I wonder why?

Peace

[mcrowder]

And here's the rub, Dirk. Attitudes like what you've posted here are part of what chases off the better officials (like, perhaps, Rut), and is the CAUSE of the inferiority, at times, of youth officiating.

[Dirk]

Is it clipping when a ball carrier is being pursued by a tackler, and the tackler is brought down from behind by the ball carrier's team, with first contact about knee level? If not, I am sorry, but it is a penalty.

There's the rub, you only do it because the money's good Jrut. Shame on you, take some pride in what you do.

If my attitude offends you guy here, pardon me, but I would like people to care about about what they do as much as I do. I am out there on my time, without getting paid, and I don't have dreams of working full time at a higher level. I enjoy working with the young kids and have for a number of years now. My son has moved on and out of the program and I enjoy teaching this game. We improve every game and have had some championships and some losing seasons. This game teaches character which is sadly lacking in most of childrens' activities these days. We want the kids to own up to mistakes they make and learn from them. Most of the officials do this, and say sorry about that call or non call, and do a even job on thw whole. This group, after watching the game tape did do an even job, unfortunately is was an evenly bad job and do not seem to care. Not the example we want our team to aspire to.