Rules on hitter center?

[Dirk]

I coach a youth team of 8-9 yr olds. We had a bad crew working our last game and I thought I understood to rules well. We play under HSFED rules, with only weight and mercy rules being added on top of those.

We got a penalty at the end of the game with 45 sec left, for hitting the center when the other team was trying to take a knee. The Umpire said we could not contact the center when the QB was taking a knee. Oh, the hit cause the other team to fumble, which we recovered (NG).

1st I have no idea where that rule is? Any help?

2nd If the other team does not tell the D line this is going to occur, how can this be enforced?

Did the Umpire and his crew confuse this with some other formation?

Is there a review that can be requested or sent to some sort of evaluation process? This group was awful and the group they come from needs to be aware of it. Other causes of concern, they lost the down count 9 times, said free blocking zone was 4 yds deep and 7 wide, holding on defense was 5 yd penalty while it was 10 on Offense, we could not have MORE than 7 on the LOS, huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants - not a timeout near the coaches box, the other team huddled 14-16 players and would break the huddle and the extra players would run off the field- many times 1 or 2 were still on field as the snap occured- no flag, coaches could go out on field to give play calls to the players - again no time out called. I believe these guys were just dumb, idiots and not conspiring against us but it looks bad...

[ljudge]

The snapper is protected in scrimmage kick formation only which is when there is at least one player 7 or more yards behind the LOS in position to receive a long snap. You mentioned you coach youth football. Our association (in agreement with league officials) have relaxed this to 5 yards since the kids are small and can't snap the ball 7 yards in most cases.

I can't comment on the rest only to say you should contact your local officials association and discuss with them.

[Dirk]

This kick formation cannot have a player directly behind (under the center to receive snap), correct?

The play had the QB ready to recieve the snap and a player maybe 5 yds deep.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Dirk
huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants

Actually they were right on this one...there is not an NF rule against having more than 11 players in the huddle.

Also, ljudge is correct that the snapper only gets protection if A is in a scrimmage kick formation.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
I coach a youth team of 8-9 yr olds. We had a bad crew working our last game and I thought I understood to rules well. We play under HSFED rules, with only weight and mercy rules being added on top of those.

We got a penalty at the end of the game with 45 sec left, for hitting the center when the other team was trying to take a knee. The Umpire said we could not contact the center when the QB was taking a knee. Oh, the hit cause the other team to fumble, which we recovered (NG).

1st I have no idea where that rule is? Any help?

2nd If the other team does not tell the D line this is going to occur, how can this be enforced?

Did the Umpire and his crew confuse this with some other formation?

I do not know. I was not there. I did not see the play. None of us here did. We do not know what took place to warrant a flag and it could be that you misunderstood what they called also. Maybe there was a flag for unnecessary roughness?

Originally posted by Dirk
Is there a review that can be requested or sent to some sort of evaluation process? This group was awful and the group they come from needs to be aware of it.

Youth leagues are like snowflakes, they all are different. You would have to talk to the administrators of that league.

Originally posted by Dirk
Other causes of concern, they lost the down count 9 times, said free blocking zone was 4 yds deep and 7 wide, holding on defense was 5 yd penalty while it was 10 on Offense, we could not have MORE than 7 on the LOS, huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants - not a timeout near the coaches box, the other team huddled 14-16 players and would break the huddle and the extra players would run off the field- many times 1 or 2 were still on field as the snap occured- no flag, coaches could go out on field to give play calls to the players - again no time out called. I believe these guys were just dumb, idiots and not conspiring against us but it looks bad...

Everything you just complained about is what happens in youth football. First of all on timeouts near the coachesÂ’ box, there can be as many players in the huddle as possible. That is a new rule BTW. There is really no rule that says you cannot break a huddle with 12 or more. The rule only talks about leaving the game properly, but "breaking the huddle" in itself is not a foul. As a matter of fact a Referee or Wing has some leeway to decide when that penalty has occurred. And at the youth level I can tell you there is a lot of confusion as to who is in or out of a game. These are 8-9 year olds, not 18-19 year olds in college.

I have a question for you. Did they call every infraction on you? I have yet to work a youth game where the kids on both teams did not have a time where they did not line up properly. I have worked many games where a lineman is illegally downfield on pass plays. Or better yet, might not have proper uniform equipment. But instead of throwing flags, we tell a coach or try our best to not throw a flag when the violation is borderline at best. I understand you might think you have all the rules and know all the rules, but this was just a youth football game. You probably had officials that were young or not very experienced and are still learning the game. And many of the times officials at this level have to deal with coaches that do not know the rules or do not know basic coaching techniques. So if you are so upset, you have the right to complain and should under the process you have talked about. I just have a problem with youth coaches like yourself that complain about things and you are not even aware of the actual rules. I had a coach in a Sunday Youth League I have worked for the past 2 seasons tell me that "crack back blocking was illegal." I even asked him "what did you mean by crack back blocking?" He had not answer and come to find out the league had no such rule. But if I listened to this coach, I would have violated a league rule. And you guys wonder why you have to pay more to get officials to work a percentage of the time officials work during HS games.

Peace

[KSRef]

Check out the thread on "Referees needed in Carroll County MD". After reading this thread are there any question on why they bailed? Coaches at the 8-9 year old level (like children) should be seen and not heard.

[WyMike]

Originally posted by KSRef
Check out the thread on "Referees needed in Carroll County MD". After reading this thread are there any question on why they bailed? Coaches at the 8-9 year old level (like children) should be seen and not heard.

Agreed. As this is only my first year, I too can see many issues at the youth level. 'Angry Young Coach' whom most likely didn't see much time when he played, if he played, is screaming at 10 yr olds about some trick play. When we as officials need to remind them over and over on how to line up on the LOS.

Then there is the kid who isn't making his block on the offensive line who is being chastized. Could it be his 3pt stance has his down hand right between his ankles??? Nice base.

Or the coach who wants a marginal call on the opposing team while I continue to tell his players what they just did wrong and try to set them straight.

It's no wonder so many of our youth are resorting to X-Box and Nintendo instead of learning to play a wonderful sport and falling in love with it. I guess after having 'Angry Young Coach' or 'Over the Hill Reliving My Dreams Dad Coach' tear you apart.... Soccer does seem to look good...

[Dirk]

No they did not huddle near the sideline, it was a normal huddle between downs. They had 2-4 extra kids in the huddle. The rule 3-7 clearly states that replaced players must leave the field immediately. If they are in a huddle for 15 sec, is that immediately? Then when their replaced players did not get off the field before the snap, they said they had no affect on the play so no foul. The rules clearly say it is illegal substitution.

Holding on Off is different than holding on Def?

Clipping 5yds past the hash on a reverse sweep is in the free blocking zone? When asked about it, the ref said the FBZ was 7 yds wide and 4 deep. It is hard enough to try and teach kids this game, and then have to deal with a total lack of caring on the ref part.

We drew 2 flags for having 9 men on the LOS, and were told we could only have 7, no more no less. BUNK. Maybe they thought it was the NFL, and never awoke from their dream...

When are the coaches allowed on the field? Before, after the game, at halftime, and during timeouts. So why is their no flag when they walk out on to the field during the break between downs? Not just once, but almost every down.

We had a warning for 5 people in the coaches box, 3 coaches and 2 subs. This should have been a flag by rules, but I guess if our coaches were on the field instead of the box, it would have been better huh?

It is really funny to me that all I get is chastised for asking about the rules? I guess what I read somewhere is true, you guys are mostly doing this for the power trip. Sad example you are setting.

Oh FYI, we won the game by 5 on an interception return after the take a knee BS penalty. Yeah, going to take a knee and then after a 30 yd penalty, 15 for hitting the center, and 15 unsportsmanship on our HC, they decided to try and run up the score. The outcome does not alter my view of the poor job that was done. It would be a shame for this to happen to another team. Another ol' boys group not going to try to improve, just happy with how it is.... shameful!

[Dirk]

Pardon me ljudge and JRutledge, I did not mean to lump you in with the others. I got some answers from you and thanks for sharing.

[Jim S]

Someone was probably filming. Take the tape to your governing body. They are the ones who need to be appraised if things aren't right.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
Pardon me ljudge and JRutledge, I did not mean to lump you in with the others. I got some answers from you and thanks for sharing.

This is not about me personally. But all you are doing is whining like a baby like this was the NFL. These are kids. I work 3 sports and if I was as strict with the rules at the youth levels as we are with the varsity and college levels, we never end a game. You have to use some common sense as it relates to kiddy ball. I do not think your team was put at a great disadvantage because there were more than 11 in the huddle. That rule was put in place to help not deceive the defense as to who is on the field. I am sure kids that are 8 and 9 years old are not confused by who is on the field and who is not on the field by who is in the huddle. If you think it is, I guess you have been watching too much TV. I have yet to see the personnel group that complicated to figure out at that level. I wonder if you had more than one coach talking to the officials, should the officials have thrown the "assistants" out of the game because they were not the head coach. You realize that only the head coach can do certain things, should they flag you and throw them out for violating any part of that rule?

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Peace

[Patton]

Dirk, if your youth group (at least for the 8-9 age group)is anything like the group my son plays on the problem is the youth group, not the refs. What I mean by this is that they don't want to pay for "real" officials. They have high school aged kids out there that mix up the rules from NFHS, NCAA and NFL. It's not the officials fault in this case, they don't get the training or the number of games that the officials on this post get. As a dad, it is frustrating to watch these guys mess up on calls, but as an official I see them doing the same thing on both sides of the ball. I'm not sure if this is the case, but I'd be willing to bet that it is. If you have a problem with it, which it appears you do, talk to your organization about hiring trained officials. If you are getting the officials from an association and they are giving you the real green guys, ask for them to provide an experienced white hat to help control the game. Most importantly, remember these are 3rd and 4th grade kids, teach them the basics as well as you can and HAVE FUN.

[WyMike]

Nice. There are bad apples in any bushel basket Dirk. We have two undefeated youth teams which are very well coached and a pleasure to work with. We also have a number of 'Angry Young Coaches' as well.

We do the little guy stuff pro bono. My typical weekly schedule is 2 little guy games each on Tuesday and Wednesday.

Thursday I work a JV or Middle School game. Friday I may travel up to 4 hours to work a Varsity game. Saturday is typically one or even two of the smaller HS lower games in our area.

This past weekend my crew and I worked a Varsity game Friday night out of State. And then three games beginning at 9am with a 10 minute break between games. Think 12 quarters straight of 8th grade, Freshman and JV then a 2 hour ride home early Saturday evening.

With an average of 4 games per week with all of the travel involved, coupled with 2 nights out of the house working 4 little guy games for nothing, I hear all kinds of complaints from coaches. Some with merit. Some without merit. What's ironic is the fact it is the very same coaches who are on the field while working the officials hollering about our badly missed calls, and then telling me "Good no-call ref!" when it's a foul on HIS team! lol

Officiating is a difficult job with little thanks other than the fact we love the sport, the players interact courteously and seem to enjoy having us there and most of all we enjoy being on the field with them. It isn't the coaches or fans Dirk. No power trip. You've missed the whole thing about officiating as well as coaching. It's the kids.

Coaching a youth league doesn't make anyone a Vince Lombardi no matter how long they work on their trick plays at that level.

You may not find the sympathy you're looking for here Dirk, based upon the "attitude" of your own postings and what we as officials hear from many of the coaches when we step onto the field. Your postings could come from any sideline in Small-town, USA on any Friday night.

I will tell you there are good coaches out there as well. As well as good and bad officials like in any sport. You would be far better served to seek answers from the groups association who officiated your contests. Not from here.

From here we get to see only one side. Please excuse us, or me specifically, for not jumping on your bandwagon to rip another official.

I feel very comfortable in the fact you "work the refs" much like anyone else. Whom doesn't want all of the calls to go in their favor, right?

8-9 yr olds you're coaching, huh? Why not address these issues with someone that can make a difference in your area? Or possibly set an example to your 8-9 yr olds and play through the adversity and then request to not have the same crew work your youth league?

[ABoselli]

It sounds like Dirk had legitimate beefs.

I also know that the most experienced guys aren't always the ones working these games and that if they are getting these items wrong, it should be addressed, because they aren't always going to be doing youth games (well, maybe this bunch might, but you get my meaning).

My advice would be to find out who in their local association is the person to talk to regarding assigning of officials for their games and take it up with him in a calm, business-like manner.

My level of patience with zealous youth coaches is generally lower than whale ****, but if there is a valid concern, it should be addressed, just as we would want them to address a valid concern we may have.

That being said, I turned in my last two weekends of youths this year due in no small part to coaches/fans. Ay carumba, folks. The kids are generaly better behaved than the adults.

[WyMike]

Originally posted by ABoselli
That being said, I turned in my last two weekends of youths this year due in no small part to coaches/fans. Ay carumba, folks. The kids are generaly better behaved than the adults.

Can't help but to admire the ripping you get from parents for not making a call a parent saw, and when you do make the call against their kid it's, "C'mon let'em play they're just kids for Gawds sake!"