Jim's Test Question #1

[SJoldguy]

The options are correct as contributed.

They are:

Accept: A's ball 1st and 10 on B15, untimed down. DQ B1

Decline: No untimed down. Halftime. Administer B1's DBF on 2nd half kickoff. DQ B1

I enjoyed the discussion on how to handle the choice. I tell the captains at the pregame coin tosse that by rule it is the captains choice but we all know that the coach signals in what he wants them to do. If you want to wait while ha makes up his mind, ask me to repeat the options. Look at the coach but don't walk away from me. If the coach is unaware of some details such as loss of down, he may not be making the best choice. In that case, listen to me and you might want to make a better choice.

If I were making the choice for B, I would decline this deep in my territory. Maybe not on the other side of midfield.


Look for "Jim's Test Question #2" on a forum near you soon!

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by PSU213


I think there is a difference between who makes the decision and who does the talking. [/B]

Are you married too? This is something I have learned first hand this last year!

James

[Jim S]

Well, we don't extend the period. This is easily handled by asking the B captain "You don't want them to have another chance at scoring, do you?"
Then the B player is ejected. Then the period is ended and you go to the coach to tell him of the ejection and the fact that there will be a 15 yarder on the 2nd half kickoff.
As far as who makes the call, it is the captain on the field who makes the call, he may quickly get advice from the coach, but if he makes a decision that's what it will be.
At the same time I don't let a kid make the wrong decision because the coaches either don't know what the foul is, or the enforcement. Had a whole coaching staff try to decline an OPI on 3rd down the other day so they could have 4th down come up. They had half the team yelling "decline it!!".
My first comment to the captain was "Are you going to listen to me first or take the advice of a bunch of people who don't know what is going on?"
He was smart. Said, "What' going on ref?" Then he made the proper call.
It is not our job to babysit a coaching staff everytime there is a penalty. That's why there are captains out there.

[Deep]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Deep - why do you say this is the coach's decision? Except at the smaller-kids' age, I don't talk to the coach at all on penalties. The captains make the call.

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. It it looks like there has been some good discussion going on.

Part of my original statement was "And despite what the book says, this is the coach's decision, not some 15-17 year old kid's. Be sure that the wing gets the info to the coach so he can signal his kid what he wants done."

So I'm going to talk to the captain, but the real decision is going to be the coach's, who is going to let his kid know what he wants to do. And the reason for that is I'm not going to put a potentially game altering penalty decision like this on the shoulders of a 15-17 year old kid, I'm going to put it on the coaches shoulders. The captain has enough to worry about during the game.

I think anytime you can get coaches and players information, they appreciate it. Where's the harm in letting people know what is going on? I've always felt that a coach doesn't have to like every call that we make, but they do have the absolute right to know what we are doing and why.

As one poster pointed out, tough penalty options are decided by the coaches in the NFL. I know that the Big Ten operates this way, too. They talk to the captain, but get the info to the coaches so they can make the real decision. They will even go so far on a really tough one as to walk the captain over near his bench and give him the options right in front of it. Those levels have more experienced players than we do, so it stands to reason to me that if they think this is a good thing, then we should be doing the same thing to help our less experienced, younger players.

[kentref]

Originally posted by SJoldguy
The options are correct as contributed.

They are:

Accept: A's ball 1st and 10 on B15, untimed down. DQ B1

Decline: No untimed down. Halftime. Administer B1's DBF on 2nd half kickoff. DQ B1

midfield.


Look for "Jim's Test Question #2" on a forum near you soon!

Rule 5-2-3c indicates that "... a new series is awarded to: B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain."
The result of the play is that A has the ball on B's 20 which is behind the line to gain. Accepting the illegal formation penalty on A (which happened during the down) still leaves the ball behind the line to gain.
The dead ball foul happened after the down. So if you follow Rule 5-2-3c, why then, if the penalty is accepted for the illegal formation, is it not B's ball 1st and 10 at B's 15 (for one untimed down)?

[mcrowder]

It is.

[walter l brown]

Originally posted by Deep
Walter,

Good job so far. Now what do we have if A's foul is declined?

[dumbref]

While it is true the 5 yard penalty against A leaves the mark short of the line to gain, accepting the penalty also means replaying 4th down. The ball is still in A's possession, thus the 15 yard against B takes the mark beyond the line to gain. 1st and 10 A.

Another resent thread talks about giving the best choice to the captain first. While I agree you should not block the captain's view from his coach, I look him straight in the eye and say "Listen to me closely - this is important". Give his best choice first and in this case I would include the information "if he declines the penalty the half is over - if he accepts the penalty, A will be given and an untimed down with the opporunity to score". I want to make sure I have his undivided attention before give him any options.

With the coaches around here - they would be telling him to take the penalty!

[walter l brown]

Originally posted by Deep
Walter,

Good job so far. Now what do we have if A's foul is declined?

if a's penalty is decline you would mark the penalty from the end of the run 20 yardline half the distance to b's 10 1/10 a.

[Rich]

Originally posted by BushRef

As the WH, if I survive to make it that far, I would never intentionally block the view of the player between him and his sideline. However, if he chooses to look the other way and make the mistake, I mean decision on his own, that's his choice.

I WH on Friday nights and I *encourage* the kids to get the "right" answer from the sidelines.

On this play I would lay out all the options to the captain, including telling him that accepting the penalty will give A another shot at the endzone. The kids deserve to know the implications of any decision -- and we're not out there to show everyone how smart we are at the expense of the teams.

--Rich

[Rich]

Originally posted by walter l brown

Halftime. I don't care about the yardage markoff. Until the second half kickoff, of course.

[SJoldguy]

To Kentref:

Dumbref is correct. Accepting A's liveball foul means the down remains the same, in this case 4th down (at the B30)and now an untimed down as part of the 1st half is needed. The deadball foul is measured from the succeeding spot, which because of the untimed down is the B30 , moving the ball beyond the line to gain to the B15, giving A possession beyond the line to gain and a 1st and 10.

Decling the penalty, leaves A at the B20 yardline, behind the line to gain. B's ball 1st and 10 from B20 is a moot point because the 2nd quarter is over. The succeeding spot is now the 2nd half kickoff for the deadball foul.

To Dumbref:

Your name really doesn't apply to you.

[walter l brown]

Originally posted by Deep
Walter,

Good job so far. Now what do we have if A's foul is declined?

after farther review if the penalty is decline it would be halftime and the penalty would be marked of in the second half kickoff. must remember to read the complete question before responding.

[SJoldguy]

Hello Walt,

Welcome to the forum. Try some of the other threads also.

Jim (you know who!)