Incidental Facemask

[dboone17]

On an incidental facemask penalty I know it is tacked on to the end of the run but my question is if the penalty yards are not enough for a first down do you still repeat the down? I've been seeing it both ways and now I'm confused.

[Warrenkicker]

When a penalty is accepted, unless it is one where there is an automatic first down awarded or it includes a loss of down, you will always repeat the down unless the line to gain has been reached.

[SeanWest]

Assuming we're talking about NFHS, high school rules...

5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense).

The down is not repeated... if the foul happens on 2nd down, it will be 3rd down after the pentaly is applied if the ball is still not past the line to gain.

There is never an automatic first down.

-SW---

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by SeanWest
Assuming we're talking about NFHS, high school rules...

5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense).

The down is not repeated... if the foul happens on 2nd down, it will be 3rd down after the pentaly is applied if the ball is still not past the line to gain.

There is never an automatic first down.

-SW---

You might want to read up on your rules a little better.

Also my response was an all-inclusive response covering all penalties, not just the one mentioned.

[Theisey]

The acceptance of this team-B foul will allow team-A to repeat the down unless of course the extra yardage gives team-A a first down.
There isn't any team-B live ball foul that would prevent that.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Theisey
The acceptance of this team-B foul will allow team-A to repeat the down unless of course the extra yardage gives team-A a first down.
There isn't any team-B live ball foul that would prevent that.

USC?

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker

You might want to read up on your rules a little better.

Also my response was an all-inclusive response covering all penalties, not just the one mentioned.

Warren, you have me confused. I am in agreeance with SW post. This is a live ball foul against the defense for incidental face mask. The enforcement is 5 yards added to the "end of the run". The way this appears to me is the Offense keeps the run/down, gets 5 yards added on the end of the run, AND they get the down over??? That doesn't sound correct to me. Now if the penalty results in a first down then they get the first down but I don't think they get the down, additional yardage, and the down over. Maybe you need to read up on your rules a little better or please correct me if I'm wrong.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Warren, you have me confused. I am in agreeance with SW post. This is a live ball foul against the defense for incidental face mask. The enforcement is 5 yards added to the "end of the run". The way this appears to me is the Offense keeps the run/down, gets 5 yards added on the end of the run, AND they get the down over??? That doesn't sound correct to me. Now if the penalty results in a first down then they get the first down but I don't think they get the down, additional yardage, and the down over. Maybe you need to read up on your rules a little better or please correct me if I'm wrong. [/B]

Derock , you never fail to amaze me. You are wrong and stand corrected. After all this time you still don’t have a clue. This foul is enforced using the “All But One” principal and the down will be repeated unless the line to gain has been reached after enforcement. Come on you guys. This is fundamental stuff that should be known to all competent officials.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by SeanWest
Assuming we're talking about NFHS, high school rules...

5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense).

The down is not repeated... if the foul happens on 2nd down, it will be 3rd down after the pentaly is applied if the ball is still not past the line to gain.

There is never an automatic first down.

-SW---

Sean, are you a Football Official ? And what do you mean "There is never an automatic first down" ?
How about roughing the passer, or snapper or holder, or kicker.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by James Neil

Sean, are you a Football Official ? And what do you mean "There is never an automatic first down" ?
How about roughing the passer, or snapper or holder, or kicker.

Mr Neil, he is not talking about roughing. His response was dealing with incidental face mask! I'm sure what he meant was there is never an automatic first down on an incidental face mask penalty. The enforced yardage could result in a first down but never an anutomatic first down.

[Snake~eyes]

Repeat the down, this is a basic fundamental like James Neil said. Incidental facemask is neither loss of down or automatic first down and since the penalty is a liveball foul you must repeat the down unless the first down is reached.

[JugglingReferee]

So let's say it is 4th and 10. Running back gets 3 yards and is prevented gaining further yards by an incidental facemask. The 5 yards tacked onto the end of the run would still be short of the LTG. Then we'd have a turnover on downs. How fair is that? Use logic: the down must be repeated otherwise we'd have chaos!

[sir_eldren]

NFHS, Rule 5-2-2 (truncated to highlight relevant portions):
When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down. . . . The number of the next down is the same of that of the down during which the foul occured unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or enforcement or the advance results in a first down.

Looks like a foul by B will that results in extra yardage, but not a first down, would still be a replay of the down.

-Craig

[PSU213]

Originally posted by dboone17
On an incidental facemask penalty I know it is tacked on to the end of the run but my question is if the penalty yards are not enough for a first down do you still repeat the down? I've been seeing it both ways and now I'm confused.

An incidental facemask penalty is not always "tacked on" to the end of the run--it is enforced under the all but one principle. If before a pass, B incidentally grasps an A player's facemask the basic spot is the previous spot, and then penalty is enforced from there.

As already mentioned, 5-2-2 says that the the next down will be the same in number as down in which the foul occured (unless is LOD foul, an automatic first down, or enforcement of the penalty results in a first down).

[mcrowder]

Wow.

Just wow.

No offense guys, and we were all new once... but how do you get out of the very first rules clinic without having at least this down pat and ingrained in your brain. That's just about the first rule you learn on penalty enforcement ... before even learning which fouls are 5, 10, and 15 yards.