Incidental Facemask

[Rich]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Warren, you have me confused. I am in agreeance with SW post. This is a live ball foul against the defense for incidental face mask. The enforcement is 5 yards added to the "end of the run". The way this appears to me is the Offense keeps the run/down, gets 5 yards added on the end of the run, AND they get the down over??? That doesn't sound correct to me. Now if the penalty results in a first down then they get the first down but I don't think they get the down, additional yardage, and the down over. Maybe you need to read up on your rules a little better or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Um, yes they do. Read rule 2. Then read it again about 40 times. This is BASIC stuff.

That way you'd know that the only reason they get the yardage "tacked" on is because the basic spot on a running play is the end of the associated run. The down still repeats, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FOUL (excepting the automatic first downs, of course) unless the line-to-gain is reached.

The reason penalties are misapplied is that people don't understand terms like "basic spot," "all-but-one," "running play," and "loose-ball play."

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
The reason penalties are misapplied is that people don't understand terms like "basic spot," "all-but-one," "running play," and "loose-ball play."

I agree, and it isn't even that hard! At first t was kind of confusing but if you put some time in it and read it carefully you can very easily understand those terms and understand basic penalty enforcement.

[jumpmaster]

I had trouble grasping this concept this year. As a first year white hat, when I started enforcing penalties it didn't seem right that A could get yardage gained + penalty yardage, not have a 1st down and THEN replay the down. As I enforce it more and more, and spend some time in my rule book, case book and comic book, I finally understand it.

I never thought about this principle before b/c my white hat just told me where to put the ball without any explanation. But now, I got it...

[mikesears]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Wow.

Just wow.

No offense guys, and we were all new once... but how do you get out of the very first rules clinic without having at least this down pat and ingrained in your brain. That's just about the first rule you learn on penalty enforcement ... before even learning which fouls are 5, 10, and 15 yards.

I think part of the problem is that officials sometimes listen to announcers. Announcers use words like, "Tacked onto" to describe what is happening to the viewers.

I fully agree with those who say to repeat the down after a facemask penalty. I don't believe ANY league tacks on the yardage and counts the down. (Could be wrong about NFL on this one).

If we would quit refering to a facemask foul as a "tack-on" penalty, we might discourage people from wanting to count the down. The rulebook does not contain these words and they only serve to confuse newer officials.

If there is foul by the defense, the down is ALWAYS replayed unless an automatic first down is awarded as part of the penalty or unless the line-to-gain is reached after enforcement.


[Edited by mikesears on Sep 7th, 2004 at 12:56 PM]

[PiggSkin]

I believe that the NFL does tack on the yardage, but count the down... That's likely where all of the confusion is coming from...

[mcrowder]

Nope. Not in the NFL either.

[Derock2004]

I believe I am the cause of all this confusion and to be honest I'm still confused but don't bother trying to further explain. The posts that have already been made seem clear enough I just have to go back and study this rule to try and better understand. Thanks for all of your input.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Warren, you have me confused. I am in agreeance with SW post. This is a live ball foul against the defense for incidental face mask. The enforcement is 5 yards added to the "end of the run". The way this appears to me is the Offense keeps the run/down, gets 5 yards added on the end of the run, AND they get the down over??? That doesn't sound correct to me. Now if the penalty results in a first down then they get the first down but I don't think they get the down, additional yardage, and the down over. Maybe you need to read up on your rules a little better or please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I will stand by my original post on this topic.

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
When a penalty is accepted, unless it is one where there is an automatic first down awarded or it includes a loss of down, you will always repeat the down unless the line to gain has been reached.

The rules are a little different for dead-ball, non-player and unsportsmanlike penalties but we were talking about a live-ball foul. REPEAT THE DOWN.

[SeanWest]

Of course you all are right about repeating the down. 5-2-2 is clear on that point. My only defense is that my brain was malfunctioning and I couldn't find the rule reference.

"5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense)" was assuming that the foul was behind the basic spot.

Wow... I really read a lot in to that original post, didn't I?

"There is never an automatic first down"... for incidental face mask fouls, if that makes it clearer.

I guess I shouldn't be posting here after long days and a lack of sleep (he says after an 18 hour day, running on 4 hours sleep).

-SW---

[PSU213]

Originally posted by mikesears
I think part of the problem is that officials sometimes listen to announcers. Announcers use words like, "Tacked onto" to describe what is happening to the viewers.

I fully agree with those who say to repeat the down after a facemask penalty. I don't believe ANY league tacks on the yardage and counts the down. (Could be wrong about NFL on this one).

If we would quit refering to a facemask foul as a "tack-on" penalty, we might discourage people from wanting to count the down. The rulebook does not contain these words and they only serve to confuse newer officials.

If there is foul by the defense, the down is ALWAYS replayed unless an automatic first down is awarded as part of the penalty or unless the line-to-gain is reached after enforcement.

I agree--the phrase "tacked on" only causes problems.

The only time I heard an official use "tacked on" in a 'major' game was in an NCAA Division I game with a roughing the passer call. There was a pass that was caught followed by a short run by the receiver before he was tackled. There was also a roughing call on the play. The referee said the 15 yards were "tacked on" to the end of the run. I suppose roughing the passer is the only time you could argue that saying "tacked on" is justified.